The programming talent myth [LWN.net]

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 2:10 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
In reply to: The programming talent myth by ncm
Parent article: The programming talent myth

So…with the poverty line in the US around $24k, what is the $100k-wide band up to your middle class number? Wiki says that $30k-$65k is lower middle class and up to around $125k is upper middle class (for a household). Those numbers seem much more reasonable to me. Not everyone lives in ridiculously priced areas like NYC or the SF Bay area (where $120k might actually net you the same as something like $80k in a more reasonable location after taking out expected rent and such).

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The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 4:01 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (7 responses)

They used to call that "working class" or, less politely, wage slavery. Wikipedia is evidently not a great resource for economic insight. (Who wrote that stuff?) Consider your average programmer's salary less house, insurance, and car payments. The lucky ones might inherit a parent's house. Used cars are a better value nowadays, fortunately.

The US used to have a wide swath of middle class voters. They have been largely wiped out, very deliberately, by policies instituted in the '70s, supported by crushingly effective propaganda methods invented by Edward Bernays in the '20s. In their place are people who think they're middle-class because their parents really were, and because politicians and advertisers tell them they are. But most are one medical emergency away from homelessness.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 7:45 UTC (Fri) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (6 responses)

> Consider your average programmer's salary less house, insurance, and car payments.

Can you give some figures for your area for these things because it's not making sense for me. For example around here we're you could buy (what's considered here) a large house for $1340 p/m, insurance would be about $250 p/m (for everything, including health) and a car lease perhaps $500 p/m, so a household earning 60k should have at least 15k income left even after the 30% income tax. (Numbers converted from Euros to US$ for easier comparison).

I'm guessing it's the health insurance which is expensive, but it'd be nice if you could provide some actual prices.

> But most are one medical emergency away from homelessness.

Protip: universal healthcare solves this problem. Really.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 11:43 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (1 responses)

*Would* solve it. But the insurance lobby in the US is too powerful ever to allow any such thing, and the propaganda machine is too effective. The US is what is called a "managed population" now, routinely voting against its own interests in favor of the extreme rich. It will only get worse now that corporate money is "protected speech".

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 12:28 UTC (Sat) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

This sounds pretty desperate, and I'm not sure I can see a solution.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 18:30 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

In many of the 'hip' large metro areas, $1300/month may get you a single room in someone else's house, or a tiny, survival apartment.

Car insurance in many of these same places can easily be a couple hundred a month (assuming a new car and full coverage)

Health insurance is frequently less than car insurance for a single person (family health insurance paid by one person is more)

All this adds up and drives the prices of everything else up as well. Groceries are noticeably more expensive in many of these areas.

The mega tech companies deciding that they really don't like remote workers, and want everyone to live and work in a few massive complexes helps drive this. Not only are their employees having to pay these high costs, but everyone else in the area does as well (including all the startups)

> Protip: universal healthcare solves this problem. Really.

yeah right. many people who have lived under both systems disagree with you.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 20:29 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

And in this area, $1300 can get you an apartment with a covered, heated garage and other niceties (like an elevator for moving in). And if you can afford the down payment, that's about what a mortgage on a decent house is (with good credit). My first apartment was a 3-room attic for ~$500/month (after electricity and gas). Car insurance is ~$100/month (for a 2013; the 1989 was ~$60/month mainly due to not having things like ABS, airbags, and other safety features), I don't really look at what gets taken out of the paycheck for healthcare, so I can't comment on that. Your numbers are *way* higher than is really necessary in many areas. Again, not everyone lives in NYC or the Bay area and using it as a baseline for what is "acceptable" across the entire US is a little absurd.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 20:44 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

I wasn't even giving Bay area prices. I agree that the cost of living varies greatly around the country and around the world. Everyone needs to be aware of this and not think that their local situation reflects how things are for others (be it the person in Silicon Valley where $120K/year is marginal or the person living somewhere where $60K/year is comfortable)

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 21:42 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

On living under universal healthcare, my experience of NHS Scotland is that it is absolutely amazing. Makes me want to stay in Scotland, despite the rain. I'd be scared now to live somewhere without it.