|
|
Log in / Subscribe / Register

Mostly pointless

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 5, 2015 17:44 UTC (Thu) by sramkrishna (subscriber, #72628)
In reply to: Mostly pointless by kragil
Parent article: Building GNOME Builder

> Documentation is bad

I agree, as a GNOME person, the bar of entry in writing a GNOME app is too high at times and unless there is some kind of monetary motivation or you're one of those people who have enough time on their hands, it is difficult to write an application. However, we are trying to address problem, we have regular documentation hackfests and the documentation technology - Mallard is one of the best out there.

Builder realizes to have a lot of these docs built in so that it is easy. See, tooling is something we are finally coming to grips with and it is because of projects like Builder we have a way to address the problem.

> Community is at best unhelpful (if you point them at bugs you will get abuse)

Every maintainer has their own way they communicate with their bugs. Sometimes abrasive, sometimes not. It depends on the social responses. I know a lot users who come in feeling entitled. That can sometimes be tiring. But GNOME maintainers should conduct themselves professionally and adhere to the GNOME code of conduct. You do not seem to have given any particular examples.

> Cross platform development is not really a goal, so it totally sucks

I'm sorry, but this is complete bullshit. We are the 'lesser' platform here.. ultimately all the apps that are cross platform are never going to look nice on free desktops because they will conform primarily to Windows. This plays into our competitors advantage not ours. To me, a cross-platform app simply means that you're on your way to becoming a windows or osx app because that will be where the money and support goes. Since everybody on Linux wants all their stuff for free.. (see elementary)

So no, cross platform is only a secondary goal for us. We'd like to have our apps on a Free desktop, not a proprietary one. We are still part of a social movement. So kindly let us focus on our Free platform and make it better. Then we'll focus on cross platform infrastructure so that we can move applications from windows and osx to GNOME.


to post comments

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 7, 2015 17:20 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Maybe GNOME could set its sights on a more realistic cross-platform target first - apps that don't malfunction outside GNOME and run on platforms other than RedHat.

Everyone else's DE, WM, GUI toolkit seems to have no problems doing this. GNOME is being a "special snowflake" and gaining utterly nothing by doing so.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 8, 2015 11:06 UTC (Sun) by rleigh (guest, #14622) [Link] (6 responses)

There are some fundamental mistaken assumptions here.

The first is the thinking that people (in general) are going to write applications for GNOME specifically. They aren't. It's too niche to risk that, for both commercial and hobbyist developers. It restricts your potential userbase to a small niche (GNOME Linux user) of an already small niche (Linux desktop users). If you want to gain developers, you need to give them a reason to use your stuff, and until it's an acceptable cross-platform solution, it will be ignored. That's the basic reality. If I can write a GNOME application *and* have it work cross-platform, then you've given me a reason to consider using it. Until then, you've made a deliberate choice to limit who can use it, and by extension become a contributor to it.

On top of that, it's technically inferior to what else is readily available. So I have even less reason to consider using it. Even if you fixed the documentation issues, the bigger structural problems remain (and have done so since the start, in retrospect).

I'm lucky enough to work as a full-time free software developer (GPL and BSD libraries and programs for scientific and medical imaging); we're required to make our stuff run on all major operating systems. When time came to write a GUI frontend for one of my libraries, I went with Qt because it was realistically the only sensible option around for a cross-platform OpenGL image visualisation application. Its look and behaviour is completely native on all the major OSes and it works brilliantly. GTK+ doesn't offer that. If it did, it /might/ have been worthy of consideration. But it doesn't, and that means it's automatically excluded from many projects where it could potentially have been used. Until that is fixed, it will remain excluded in its niche. Your assertions about cross-platform applications are simply wrong, I'm afraid; Qt allows us to provide a first-class application on Linux and also on Windows/MacOS/BSDs. GTK+/GNOME would provide a mediocre application on Linux/BSD and a terrible application on Windows/MacOS, if it could be made to work at all. Your comment about "competitive advantage" is odd--both companies and individual developers would generally like to target as big an audience as possible; willingly excluding all but a tiny fraction of users makes no sense. In many situations, Qt allows provision of a Linux build where otherwise development would have been constrained to Windows/Mac; so in many ways is a positive enabler for getting Linux application support.

Regarding the community, yes it could be much better. Contrast it with others (Qt in particular), and there's a world of difference in the attidude and helpfulness of the participants. You know what the biggest difference is? Qt is actively used by many thousands of application developers, and the focus is on writing and delivering usable, functional applications. GTK+ and GNOME do not have that focus; they lost the people that mattered--the application developers--many years ago (I was one of them) and the level of discourse and current lack of direction reflect that.

Back when I was writing GTK+ applications commercially a decade ago, I submitted quite a few tested patches. Many sat unreviewed and unapplied in the GNOME bugzilla **for over a bloody decade**. That's the level of support a developer gets from the GNOME people: being completely ignored. While I was trying to write a free software editor application using the GNOME canvas, and providing patches to fix major problems with it, the GNOME community were busy creating >6 forks of it all of which were defective in different ways and all of which subsequently died. The result: today there is no canvas library (no, Cairo doesn't count since it's not a retained-mode system using the regular signal/event/object system), and GNOME kicked every developer who depended upon the old one. It was removed because it was "unmaintained", but if you don't have the resources to actually apply the patches to keep it going, that speaks volumes about the commitment there. They had the resources to create many incompatible forks, but not to apply a handful of patches?! And removing "old" but perfectly usable libraries just screws over those who are using them; way to kill backward compatibility and enrage all the users! GTK+ and GNOME have always treated third-party developers poorly, and the lack of good cross-platform support is a part of that, as is the lack of commitment to stable interfaces in the longer term. If they had, they would have retained some decent developers and it would still perhaps be a viable choice. As it is, they effectively alienated the very people who would have been their biggest supporters and contributors by marginalising and ignoring them. And the breakage with GTK+3 is just another set of problems on top of those which already existed long before then.

It's not too late for all these problems to be fixed, but it does require a drastic reorganisation of the project's priorities, and I'm not sure the rampant groupthink in the remaining developers will allow it.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 12, 2015 10:03 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (4 responses)

It's vastly easier to have a small focus and make that work. Qt has hundreds of paid developers, that's not the case with GTK+. Further, GNOME primary focus is an easy to use desktop, not on providing cross platform development tools. Various infrastructure bits that are needed will be either cross desktop (freedesktop.org), and possibly cross platform. However, making something work all across the board is secondary. It would be nice, nothing against it, but that's it.

I don't really see a benefit about primary focus being on cross platform. It's very difficult, and provides little benefit. What's nice is having something which is easy to use, not that you could do all kinds of cross platform development.

Example: Cross platform doesn't seem to be possible with Android, iOS, Windows Phone, etc. It surely isn't the primary focus.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 12, 2015 13:52 UTC (Thu) by hunger (subscriber, #36242) [Link] (1 responses)

Cross-platform support might provide little benefit to people working on a Linux desktop, but it definitely provides a lot of benefit to application developers. I also do not consider "cross-platform" and "easy to use" to be mutually exclusive goals: In fact I consider Qt to the better cross-platform solution compared to GTK as well as easier to use, but that is of course highly personal and other people will disagree.

Cross-platform definitely is possible with all the platforms you listed. Qt demonstrates that by supporting all of them. It is a lot of effort to support all those platforms, you are right there.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 12, 2015 14:19 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

That's not what I meant. I meant with primary focus where most attention goes to. That doesn't imply mutually exclusive. The rest is about that: cannot solve everything and that's not needed. That Qt has way more people I already mentioned.

I think you're confused about assuming I said "exclusive".

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 12, 2015 17:47 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

It's perfectly possible to use QT applications on iOS and Android. It just doesn't make much sense (unless we're talking about tablets) to use the same application on wildly different screen sizes.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 13, 2015 2:42 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> It just doesn't make much sense (unless we're talking about tablets) to use the same application on wildly different screen sizes.

You mean "UI" rather than "application" here. The same app logic can drive different interfaces just fine.

Mostly pointless

Posted Mar 19, 2015 5:38 UTC (Thu) by gwg (guest, #20811) [Link]

rleigh wrote:
> In many situations, Qt allows provision of a Linux build where otherwise
> development would have been constrained to Windows/Mac; so in many ways
> is a positive enabler for getting Linux application support.

Spot on. Of course the other problem with Linux for application writers
is the application distribution :- having Linux distributions compile
up each and every application themselves, whenever they get around to it,
with whatever pet "policy" changes they feel like adding (and not testing),
prevents a vibrant, open application eco-system developing. This perfectly
suits some of the zealots, but it forever relegates Linux to be an
application platform backwater.


Copyright © 2026, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds