The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate [LWN.net]

The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 23, 2014 20:07 UTC (Sun) by cas (guest, #52554)
In reply to: The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate by nybble41
Parent article: The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

the trouble with your "obvious" "reasonable philosophy" is that it is exploitation, taking advantage of other people's misfortune. your example is ethically no different than finding lost children in a forest and "offering" them a choice between coming home with you and being your sex toy or just being ignored and left where they are. they are, after all, free to reject your offer and starve or be eaten by bears or die from hypothermia.

The fact that US Libertarians can't see this goes a long way to highlighting what's wrong with them.

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The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 23, 2014 22:43 UTC (Sun) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> the trouble with your "obvious" "reasonable philosophy" is that it is exploitation, taking advantage of other people's misfortune.

I never said that it wasn't exploitation. I said that it wasn't _force_. The most obvious difference being that if someone uses force against you then a response in kind is justified (self-defense), whereas if someone merely "exploits" you, there is no justification for responding with force.

You're mixing personal/subjective morals with objective ethics. The libertarian position doesn't address the former at all; it's only concern is when the use of force is justified (in short: only when responding to the use of force by others). Your opposition to the libertarian position appears to be based on the misconception that it has something to do with "right" and "wrong", rather than the justified or unjustified use of force.

Personally, if I were in the situation you described, I believe that the right choice would be for me to offer the children whatever assistance I could provide with no strings attached. The solution to exploitation is to offer a better choice, not to remove the few they have. However, if someone else were to impose conditions, even "exploitative" ones, I would consider it wrong for me to employ force to _make_ them help without conditions, or to prevent them from making their offer, or to punish them for the "exploitation". If I did employ force in that way then, as a libertarian, I would consider a proportional defensive response against me to be justified.

The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 23, 2014 22:45 UTC (Sun) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

As much as I dislike the randians, that one's over the top. s/child/grown-up/ and it might become a bit more adequate - still somewhat of a stretch, though. Your variant is beyond "a stretch", though - there are informed consent issues that make your comparison invalid.

The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 29, 2014 9:22 UTC (Sat) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link] (2 responses)

So what should the hypothetical libertarian capitalist do then? Not offer the man a job at all?

Well, no, that won't do, because then the poor man is still homeless and hungry and out of work.

So what should he do? Offer him a job at a certain wage (set by the government, of course)?

Well, now you're forcing him to do something against his will.

But that's okay, because it's for the greater good. The ends justify the means.

That's all well and good until you are the one being forced to do something against your will. But that's okay, because it's for the greater good. What, you're not a hater, are you? How could you object to helping people? Don't you have any compassion?

We recognize that forced love is not love at all. The same principle applies here.

The real greater good, for all of us, is best served by individual liberty, personal responsibility, and giving, not reluctantly or under compulsion, but cheerfully, from the heart.

The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 30, 2014 20:16 UTC (Sun) by cas (guest, #52554) [Link] (1 responses)

or he could just steal what he needs from rich and/or exploitative jerks.

what's that you say? you want him to respect and the government to protect and enforce YOUR property rights? WTF should he respect your property rights when you don't respect his human right not to be exploited? why is your property more important, more worthy of government intervention than his life?

libertarian arseholes believe that property is more important than people.

the fact that you've put property up on a pedestal above everything else doesn't actually mean that it's worthy of the worship you want to force everyone else to give it.

ps: private charity is a copout. whether someone gets to eat or have shelter shouldn't be dependant on their cuteness or their ability to evoke pity. neither should it be dependant on the whims of the rich. welfare is a responsibility of society - i.e. paid for by taxes.

The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate

Posted Nov 30, 2014 20:54 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

OK, I think it's fair to say we've gone pretty far off topic at this point; maybe it's time to close this discussion down or find a more suitable forum for it?