On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 1:00 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
In reply to: On the sickness of our community by dlang
Parent article: On the sickness of our community

> When you have priests being threatened with jail for refusing to perform gay marriages (which we now have had happen), things have gone way too far.
When we have commercial companies claiming to be religious organizations - things have gone way too far.

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On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 1:09 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (24 responses)

> When we have commercial companies claiming to be religious organizations - things have gone way too far.

Given that you also want to force companies to jump through all sorts of hoops to become 'non-commercial', I don't see how you can reasonably block religious commercial companies.

I am curious as to what companies you think are such offenders here. I'm guessing HobbyLobby but there is a big difference between saying that a company is "a religious company" and allowing the owner of the company freedom of religion in deciding how to spend their money.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 1:13 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> Given that you also want to force companies to jump through all sorts of hoops to become 'non-commercial'
That's your problem, if you wish to discriminate people.

> I am curious as to what companies you think are such offenders here.
The marriage chapel forced to allow gay wedding (note: no priests were required to perform rites). It's a commercial company that technically rents the building for weddings.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 1:40 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (22 responses)

>I'm guessing HobbyLobby but there is a big difference between saying that a company is "a religious company" and allowing the owner of the company freedom of religion in deciding how to spend their money.

Sure. Let's consider their religion and their investments then.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-r...

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 2:36 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (21 responses)

The point of this is to NOT be judging others the way you want to do.

First off, I don't demand perfection in people, and since organizations are made of many people, I sure don't demand perfection or even perfect consistency in any substantial organization.

The fact that their retirement fund invested in a company that does things you think they should hate could be for a number of reasons, including that the people doing the investing don't run every decision past the people who care more about the details, or the fact that the company they are investing in may be doing enough things they like for them to be willing to put up with the things that they don't like.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 2:45 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

>The point of this is to NOT be judging others the way you want to do.

No. I am judging them by their own criteria. They fail to meet it with it with any consistency even after it has been pointed out to them. So that makes me question the sincerity of their claims. This is a question of sheer hypocrisy. Not of perfection.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 7:29 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

as I said, in the real world organizations do many things, some of which you like, some of which you may object to. Just because a company does something that you object to doesn't mean that you should have no dealings or investments with the company, you need to decide if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

And even if they don't, and you do decide to stop investing in that company, it's not something to implement quickly. If you have a large investment and announce that you are not going to do business with them and sell off your interest in them, you will loose your shirt as people pay you less than the stock is worth as you sell rapidly. So the right thing to do for your investors (the retirement account) is to do nothing in the short term, and in the longer term shift your money gradually away.

the world is not black-and-white.

All that being said, I haven't followed the details of this case, so I don't know much about it. But then again, nobody outside of that company really knows what their criteria is either. You may very well be misunderstanding their criteria when you declare that they are being hypcritical. Their lawsuit wasn't to have them stop paying for all forms of birth control, only about 4 out of 50.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 10:59 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

That's a bunch of flimsy excuses. They went to court claiming that plan b and iud were equivalent to abortion and by any definition most of them that they refused to cover are not. They were also caught investing in the same type of companies doing exclusively the things they claimed they were against. When asked about it they did nothing. Some women cannot use other forms of birth control and they are copaying for premium for health insurance to get the best they can. By being ignorant and hypocritical they have outed themselves.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 3:20 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (17 responses)

But judging spouses of others, that's OK?

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 7:23 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (16 responses)

it's redefining what marriage means, that's not just judging spouses

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 8:07 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Does marriage redefinition affect you in any way?

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 8:51 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link] (2 responses)

Allowing marriage between white people and non-white people to marry redefined marriage.

Fixing something that is imperfect isn't a bad thing. As a software developer you should know that :)

Just saying.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 11:58 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

That's been going on for centuries, it may have been frowned upon for a short (at least in the historical sense) time, but it wasn't a big change.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 12:39 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

This isn't a big change either.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 11:33 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (11 responses)

So here's my problem with the "redefining marriage" argument (at least based on religious traditions): if this is true, the government should *never* have given *any* benefits for "marriage". It should have dealt with "civil unions" and if you want to tag your church along with it to call it "marriage", fine, but the government can't give extra benefits exclusively to those who didn't the extra bits for a "marriage" (whatever they may be). However, it is called "marriage" on the books and as such, you can't have your word and then still exclude people from it at the government level. Unless you can prod Congress to actually do anything. In which case, you're some kind of superhero (maybe DC should make a Paper Mover hero…).

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 11:50 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (10 responses)

Thank you for a calm response. I could debate this with you, but this tangent has gone on too long anyway.

I will point out that California had "Civil Unions" on the books with equal rights and that wasn't considered good enough, so that wasn't the solution.

Trying to get back on topic here. The issue isn't that people disagree, the issue is if they can disagree one some points without calling for the other person to be suppressed or thrown out.

Punishing people for holding the 'wrong' opinions, even if they aren't taking actions on those opinions, was wrong when it was McCarthy doing it on the right, and it's equally wrong when it's the various groups on the left doing it.

Everyone needs to accept the idea that people who disagree with them aren't evil or insane, they can have reasons to disagree with you. If you can discuss the issue and the reasons one of you can convince the other they are wrong, or you can agree to disagree and still work together. But when it gets to the point of "I think that you think X, so you should be ignored forever" no further progress can be made.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 13:05 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (9 responses)

> I will point out that California had "Civil Unions" on the books with equal rights and that wasn't considered good enough

Most states do, but the rights are not always the same. So just because California may have had it right, if you move to, say, Montana, they wouldn't recognize you because you're not "married". Since Californians have ~zero say in Montana directly, they can change it from California's side at least.

Back on track(ish):

I do agree with you that *punishing* people for their opinions and beliefs is bad, but if the employees are not happy with their CEO, then their CEO should probably concede something (in this specific case, maybe he should have been allowed to continue but as soon as any actions pertaining to the company occurred which went along those lines, fired on the spot, but that's not how it worked out).

My view is that you can say whatever you want, but I still have the right to publicly shame you for what you're saying. Your argument(s) seems to be closer to "say what you want" without recognizing that there may be social consequences to those words. "With great power, comes great responsibility." If you're put into a position of power, it is your responsibility to keep your personal beliefs separate from your job. Maybe Eich could have done it, maybe not, but given the examples we have crawling around in DC and other political fora, I can at least understand a knee-jerk reaction (if not why it doesn't seem to apply so strongly to them).

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 28, 2014 21:25 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (8 responses)

remember that for Eich, the issue wasn't any actions or statements he made at work, it was people noticing his name on the public records of doners. This was noticed and known inside Mozilla years before he became CEO and as an organization they apparently had accepted that he could work with them. It was the outcry from people outside the organization who had never dealt with him that caused him to be fired.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 5:55 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (6 responses)

There was, IIRC, also unease at the Mozilla Foundation (the non profit one if I got the names mixed up). Either way, the CEO is a public figure for the company and any bad PR attracted because of them is unlikely to be ignored (whether right or wrong). Also, didn't he resign? It's not like he saw no issue at all (again, AFAIR). I just wish that people were as interested on digging up facts on other companies and the webs they weave as they seemed to be doing here (and if it traces back to a single or handful of people, so be it; more information here is better than none and the corporate veil should not be as opaque as it is today).

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 17:39 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (5 responses)

"He resigned" is a weak argument, Richard Nixon resigned. Margaret Thatcher resigned. Although described as voluntary a "resignation" is often something that was essentially forced on the person, either explicitly ("quit or we'll fire you") or implicitly ("we're counting on you to do the right thing here").

It's easier to feel sorry for a minimum wage employee fired for public relations reasons than a senior executive but the direct outcome is the same, someone lost their job because enough people, or loud enough people demanded it.

"They did a thing I don't like, so I want nasty things to happen to them" is revenge. Revenge is not a healthy or productive instinct, but then, that's the topic of this whole thread, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 17:44 UTC (Wed) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (3 responses)

"I don't trust that person to supervise people they are known to be biased against" is a very different thing than "I want nasty things to happen to that person".

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 18:29 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think there's much point in keeping up the pretence after this particular cat is out of the bag. People make excuses yes, so very many excuses, but what they actually wanted is revenge. And they got it, and sure enough they were content.

I care about outcomes, that's what I do. So revenge doesn't work for me. You nailed the guy to a cross? That's great, did it actually help? No? Well that's a bunch of time you wasted and one more corpse.

We used to do that a lot in safety critical jobs. Train crash? Find out if the driver lived and if so fire him. Tell everybody he's incompetent and may have been drunk. Now the papers are distracted by a simple easy to understand bad guy story (also his children will probably starve). Meanwhile, we'll continue to run railways the same as before. Huh, another train crash. Well, you know the drill, fire the driver.

But it turns out you can investigate the actual causes, work out how to prevent them and solve the problem instead. Newspapers don't like this approach, because instead of an instant bad guy to demonise they have to wait a year to digest a sixty page report that says basically "A lot of things went wrong" and then painstakingly lists them. That's not a good story! But it is a good way to improve, and it saved a huge number of lives over the last century or so.

If you _really_ thought the problem here was that an executive might be supervising people they were biased against there were lots of sensible options for what to do about that. Options with a real lasting benefit to Mozilla employees (or if mandated more widely, all employees). But that is not what the people who forced that resignation wanted. They wanted revenge, and they got it.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 30, 2014 16:27 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link] (1 responses)

There's really no comparison between some poor faceless train driver working for a railway, and the CEO -- the public face -- of a non-profit corporation that justifies its whole existence by claiming to defend principles of openness and inclusivity. Mozilla's whole existence depends on people trusting Mozilla to have their back. Brendan's initial sin was giving the impression that he wasn't trustworthy in this respect; his mortal sin was that after the PR mess started, he completely and utterly failed to take any actions whatsoever to respond and reassure people. Very talented programmer, sure, but the whole situation, and his lack of handling it, made clear that he was simply unqualified for a CEO position.

This has all been explained many times, of course, so if you want to keep claiming that everyone who disagreed with you was acting out of pure malice then I guess it probably won't stop you...

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 30, 2014 18:11 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

I assure you a mere employee chosen to be the scapegoat and sate the public's desire for revenge doesn't remain faceless for long. You would probably recognise the face of Francesco Schettino even if you don't live in Italy. Schettino will likely get a jail sentence for his role in the Costa Concordia disaster. But do not be fooled, Schettino while culpable is not the problem, sending this man to jail saves not one single life, it's purely society's retribution.

Firstly let's briefly tackle a purely technical mistake. Brendan was CEO of Mozilla Corporation, not Mozilla Foundation. The corporation is a for-profit, and only its owner the foundation is a non-profit. The corporation hires most of Mozilla's employees and always has undertaken activities that don't contribute to "principles of openness" and of course most of their income is from Google, in exchange for ensuring that the 99% of users who never change their defaults will visit Google's search engine and other properties.

Anyway, so you claim the problem was that Brendan couldn't handle this "PR mess" and this (even though it looks exactly like the others) is not an excuse but instead a /real/ reason why he just had to go.

That seems fine, right? Except, if you fail one component for its inability to pass a new test you made up, it's weird if you then subsequently just never use that test on any other components. That makes it pretty obvious that your real motivation was the failure of that component, not setting a higher standard. So, this new excuse doesn't fly because there was no effort to create a "PR mess" for Chris Beard and see how he'd fare nor for the equally important Mitchell Baker.

In fact Chris and Mitchell can keep their jobs because there isn't a powerful and organised political group trying to get them fired. They probably feel a little bit less secure knowing (from Brendan's experience) that if they piss off the wrong people they're history but for now they are safe.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 17:51 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> It's easier to feel sorry for a minimum wage employee fired for public relations reasons than a senior executive but the direct outcome is the same, someone lost their job because enough people, or loud enough people demanded it.

And there's zero difference in how easily these people a) are in need of a job for financial stability and b) can find a new job? Sure, the *direct* outcome is the same, but the collateral damage is *far* worse in the first case.

On the sickness of our community

Posted Oct 29, 2014 16:24 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

You don't remember the public ouctry in 2012?? It made the newspapers. But, since it wasn't terribly relevant to his role as CTO, everybody decided they could continue to work with him, and we all went back to life as usual.

It was only when he was made CEO that people couldn't accept it. Now gay people will be working FOR him, not just WITH him. It's a big difference. If you put yourself in their positions, can you understand the problem?

As an aside, why do you continue to say he got fired? Mozilla statements, newspaper articles, Eich himself, nobody else is saying that.