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Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 2, 2014 18:28 UTC (Mon) by fandingo (subscriber, #67019)
In reply to: Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development by johannbg
Parent article: Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

> People dont have to look further then Fedora for validation and proof of Red Hat doing that.

What is Red Hat doing specifically? Why are those things bad? When did they happen? What has happened since? Are other organizations behaving in the same way? What were their consequences?


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Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 2, 2014 21:30 UTC (Mon) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

From my experience and perspective.

What is Red Hat doing specifically?

Dictating and deciding the direction of the project to their own benefit while treating community contributions as second class citizen.

Why are those things bad?

Oppression while sending false sense of freedom in any shape or form is bad.

If you dont understand why that is there is very little thing I can help you in that regards.

When did they happen?

This is not one time thing, this has been happening from day one in Fedora and is happening today.

What has happened since?

People stopped contributing to the project and the ecosystem in whole.

Are other organizations behaving in the same way?

On a distribution level I dont think anyone can top Red Hat in that regard but I'm not familiar with other distributions and their community since I been very loyal contributor to the Fedora community and Red Hat for the past 8+ years then I got hit harder then usual by reality how Red Hat operates.

I suspect Novell is second to Red Hat in this regards with OpenSuse followed by Canonical and Debian but basically you will see this pattern forming anywhere where there is an enterprise distribution built upon community one or an enterprise application like zenoss,nagios etc. with an community. ( As in you have two product the enterprise one and the community one ).

What were their consequences?

These things usually end with a divorce ( the exception being those that do not have direct single enterprise counterpart ) with the best case scenario that contributors fork off or continue contributing elsewhere in the ecosystem and the worst case scenario they stop contributing altogether to the ecosystem in whole.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 1:05 UTC (Tue) by PaulWay (subscriber, #45600) [Link]

These are all amusing opinions, but without documentation they're just your opinions.

Have fun,

Paul

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 2:41 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Yeah sure right Fedora unity and the good work they did was just an opinion and fiction of imagination in Fedora's history and I got monkey's flying out of my butt.

Seriously go and dig up your own documentation if you require such, the evidence is there all over the project through out it's history or chose to be blindsided by the illusion Red Hat projects about the project.

I dont need too, I know, I was there and I lived through this for all those years of contribution and participation in the community and unfortunately it took me 8+ years to realize as well as understand I was powerless in trying to change what was and is taking place in that community.

So my word of advice to anyone that both is or want's to contribute to Fedora and values it's contributed time, is dont, dont make the same mistake as I did.

If you love Fedora join Chris and the kororaproject and it's community which is filled with good people and will take good care of you and they will need your help as the Fedora project is being mutilated further into RHEL next future vision,version and it's products and the path of Fedora spins and Remix becomes clearer to them.

Or join other distributions like Arch or Mageia or move one layer above , to an layer which is less likely to be subjected to corporate misuse and participate and contribute directly upstream for one or many project you love. Kernel, Gnome, KDE, Libreoffice etc all large or small all upstream communities that directly need your help.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 4:20 UTC (Tue) by fandingo (subscriber, #67019) [Link]

You always come into threads and come up with all kinds of veiled complaints about Red Hat and Fedora, and when pressed, you never identify the specific issues. Maybe it's because I've only been using Linux since 2006, but I genuinely don't have the first clue what your complaints are, much less what I would even begin to search.

I'm trying to figure out what caused your falling-out with Red Hat. By all indications, you were heavily active in Fedora until 2013, and then something changed. Were you looking for a job there?

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 9:48 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

"I'm trying to figure out what caused your falling-out with Red Hat."

You will need to look at the entire history of my participation in Fedora to figure that one out but by my observation and interaction all those years you can split Red Hat employees within the project into three categories

Red Hat employees that are participating on their own accord and on their own time

Red Hat employees that are doing this as a part of their job description and because they want to as in they are interested in Fedora and it's community

Red Hat employees that are doing this as a part of their job description and not because they want to but have to but otherwise have no interest in Fedora

You got teams within Red Hat that know how to engage with communities ( ARM ) and you've got teams within Red Hat that do not ( Red Hat Gnome Desktop Team )

You got people within Red Hat living it's HQ ivory tower that like to invent sub-community leadership positions then dump people outside the community into those position and then you have people within Red Hat that actually spot where in the community assistance is needed and is valuable and pick people from within the community to work on it full time to strengthen that part of the community.

Then you have all the little RH internal empires fighting themselves which spreads like infections decease into the Fedora project with each of our own governing structure design to supporting those tiny little internal empires to continue that power struggle while the project is being shaped into the next RHEL version.

Long story put short we cannot fix the management problem within Red Hat and the RHEL employees that are running the shots within Fedora are not the RHEL people that should be running the shot within Fedora for the best possible outcome for the community and the project in whole.

"By all indications, you were heavily active in Fedora until 2013, and then something changed."

The change in direction of the project and realization happened on how things are truly run in the project.

"Were you looking for a job there?"

I have never looked for or applied for a job at Red Hat as far as I can recall but twice I have been offered one and on both times I declined the job offer for reasons which are entirely irrelevant to the project at hand,it's teams, their leaders and the people I would have worked with since I know they are all good people.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 12:11 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> The change in direction of the project and realization happened on how things are truly run in the project.

You've said quite a lot without actually saying anything about why *you* left, and why you are coming across like a jilted lover. (Seriously, you sound very bitter!)

What is this "change of direction", from what to what? How are things "truly" run, compared to how they are supposed to be run?

I'm not the only one here genuinely interested in the specifics.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 3, 2014 14:12 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

"You've said quite a lot without actually saying anything about why *you* left"

Now that it has been made public I can say the newly appointment [¹] benevolent dictator Matthew Miller and his future vision and direction plays a huge role in that.

Putting an individual in the leadership chair after he leaves a man hanging [2], to lead an entire community is the most stupid thing people in charge of the project have ever done.

This man is no leadership material and cannot be trusted period so behold as the worst project leader in the history of the project steps into it's spotlight.

If you think it was for a huge of luck that he was put by Red Hat in the project leader chair you are wrong.

Other reason includes wide variety of Red Hat systematically keeping progress and involvement in the community back while discriminating community contributions by elevating their own products above the community ones.

"And why you are coming across like a jilted lover. (Seriously, you sound very bitter!)"
Because I am for the personal sacrifices I made for the greater good of the project.

Mostly angry at my self for being so stupid for not listening to the warning I was given around FC6/F7 and believe of what the project allegedly stood for and represented and be dumb enough to think I could changed and being stubborn when I realize I could not so I could finish the systemd integration into the project as I signed up for.

The project is changing direction from a generic distribution to a targeted distribution without the people behind it thinking things thoroughly through, leaving contributors scratching their heads trying to figure out how it affects them.

Just catch up on .next and wg's and products and the brainwashing material on the net. Then take a good hard look into it from various affected community perspective.

1. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/...
2. https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/p...

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 5, 2014 15:33 UTC (Thu) by pjones (subscriber, #31722) [Link]

If you think it was for a huge of luck that he was put by Red Hat in the project leader chair you are wrong.
...
The project is changing direction from a generic distribution to a targeted distribution without the people behind it thinking things thoroughly through, leaving contributors scratching their heads trying to figure out how it affects them.

The directional change in Fedora has been led almost exclusively by people on FESCo, and everybody involved was elected in a reasonably free and fair way. Everybody involved has also been elected or re-elected since we've started going down the current path.

mattdm has been a large and incredibly positive part of that. It's completely unfair to him to to suggest this is somehow wrongdoing; clearly he was elected to FESCo by other Fedora contributors that liked what he was doing, and the same is true of the rest of FESCo.

While I'm in no position to know the decision making process to choose the FPL, it wasn't surprising (or "huge of luck") that he was chosen — he's done a great job, and people who take leadership roles and work well with others are the people who get selected for other leadership roles. Aside from that, the role of FPL has little direct impact on technical direction of Fedora. That's chosen by FESCo, in coordination with the Board.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 5, 2014 16:57 UTC (Thu) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Since you've decided to try to back this up with the current election process in the project you might want to explain to the audience how large number of Fedora contributors actually participate in the election and how many of those are Red Hat employees backing up the next RHEL 8 vision which they themselves are working on so people can actually see how representing for the community those elections are ( which in turn will invalidate what you or anyone else that matter tries to justify anything based on the outcome of the project election process as well as highlight the fact that there is something seriously wrong with our election process since people from the community aren't participating enough in it )

And when it comes to FESCo and election, on numerous occasion while participating in the community I heard from several individuals that did not want to run for FESCo due to the fact there where always they same Red Hat employees hogging every seat ( Kyle cropping up to hold that pattern true these days ) preventing fresh perspective from the community or just even within Red Hat from taking place because people where afraid going against the stone age fractiont. ( which again just highlight the fact there there is something significantly wrong with the election process since there is not enough diversity in individuals nominating themselves to participates in various governing entities within the project. )

Alot of good thing he did you say like backstabbing Lennart or when he tries to force me to adjust my cron to time feature migration to accommodates his cloud /container vision then hijack my cron to time migration feature proposal which does not even make sense since to be able to implement what he suggested we would have had to create several new targets and at that point you are forced to write new proposal and we could just as well migrate everything to timer units, which we technically cant at this point and probably never will since cronie and timer units aren't interchangeable components. They complement each others shortcoming.

Every time I was going to confront him on certain things he said on that ticket or even trying to understand why he was so obsessed with this he conveniently was absent from the FESCo meeting.

The fact is that anyone that does not have shit for brains has spotted far greater leadership material in Stephen Gallagher who has been part of the new future vision from the get go while showing true leadership skills while doing so, If the underlying political move for Matt's choosing boiled down to support the RHEL 8 next release as in the.next and wg proposal.

If that was not the reason for Matt being chosen you have much more capable people leading the project both within Red Hat and outside it with women candidates taking precedence over male once ( With Máirín probably top on that list after years of dedication to the project or Ruth ) .

In the end of the day what Matt has demonstrated is that he cant be trusted for anything else than leading his left foot in front of the right.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 9, 2014 23:38 UTC (Mon) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

You could consider the possibility that any one or more of those folks was offered the FPL job but declined. It's not a job everyone wants to do. I know for certain that several people have been offered it and declined at various of the handover points.

(Note that I am speaking in generalities here; I have no specific information as regards any of those particular people. I'm just pointing out a possibility you seem to be overlooking.)

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 10, 2014 0:44 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Interesting that you assumed I had already not considered that, based on one of our talks and what we both know so you should give me a bit more credit than that, but the fact is in the end of the day it's irrelevant since you don't put people with characteristics like Matt has shown into leadership positions so he never should have been on that list to begin with.

The possibility I did not take into account was that people that are behind this process within Red Hat did, since up to this point they have been smarter than this ( which indicates they might have been replaced ) so one can only speculate what went through Denise mind when she signed this off for the project and who managed to cloud her judgment since she should have stopped this nonsense from happening in the first place.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 13, 2014 4:31 UTC (Fri) by russell (guest, #10458) [Link]

Two things Redhat does to control GNOME and Fedora:

1. Those who produce the code, control the direction, even if no one else likes it. Try swimming against that tide as a volunteer.

2. Redhat also hires vocal people from the community to ride rough shot over any descenting opinions.

One thing Redhat does NOT do:

1. Collaborate with volunteers

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 13, 2014 11:39 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Collaborate with volunteers

Check out the KDE SIG. There are Red Hat employees that work with volunteers very well there (at least).

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 17, 2014 22:50 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

You don't get the No True Scotsman argument here. If they cooperate, they're acting as individuals: everyone who doesn't cooperate is by definition acting as a tentacle of the RH monster.

Nonfalsifiability is fun...

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 13, 2014 12:55 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> 1. Those who produce the code, control the direction, even if no one else likes it. Try swimming against that tide as a volunteer.

You are absolutely correct in that "those who produce the code, control the direction" -- but your solution to "I don't like the direction" is "eliminate the folks producing the code".

I have a very hard understanding how that can be considered progress.

If you don't like the direction the ship is sailing, fork the code and produce something better; But complaining about how you're swimming against the tide when you deliberately chose to do so...

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 15, 2014 5:07 UTC (Sun) by russell (guest, #10458) [Link]

Did I say remove the coders. No. What I'm saying is that if you don't want to "fork" the users, then consult more generally. I don't have the time or inclination to fork anything. I have in the past bought GNOME into several companies, donated money, provided numberous bug reports, and even some fixes. Since GNOME 3 no longer meets my needs, I don't get involve anymore.

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 13, 2014 15:55 UTC (Fri) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

Could you please point out the people Red Hat has hired specifically to scream louder than dissenters from the community?

Questioning corporate involvement in GNOME development

Posted Jun 13, 2014 15:53 UTC (Fri) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

The mantra of open source has always been "she who does the work decides where we go," it is a fact that "corporate entities" are doing most of the work (i.e., look at LWM's kernel development statistics), so they get to call the shots. If you don't like this, get more involved.


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