A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 10:14 UTC (Thu) by avheimburg (guest, #75272)
Parent article: A possible setback for DRM in Europe

> "worrying that device manufacturers potentially have no control over what their devices are used for"

That's because once I buy the device, it's no longer the manufacturer's device. It's mine.

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A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 10:35 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (guest, #307) [Link] (19 responses)

THIS.

And my usual rant: DRM does not exist (Eve is Bob!), and even if it did exist it would not prevent me from using a PS4 as a weapon (blunt force trauma to the head). Please, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Netflix & cia, stop trying to make DRM happen...

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 11:43 UTC (Thu) by osma (guest, #6912) [Link] (18 responses)

Please, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Netflix & cia, stop trying to make DRM happen...

...and start charging real money for the games consoles, instead of heavily discounting the initial purchase price (so your device can be as cheap or cheaper than competitors' products) and then recouping the initial loss by selling very expensive games?

It might happen, but it will be interesting to see how the pricing changes play out.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 16:34 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

The funny thing is that as long as the purchasing process is convenient, people will pay by default. Look at a PC game store like gog.com which is always DRM-free, sure people who like collecting files put stuff up on bittorrent, but people who actually play the games pay for them and they make plenty of money. Most people are basically honest unless you give them a reason to think they've gotten a bad deal, like the world of MP3 file sharing before iTunes.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 7, 2014 0:20 UTC (Fri) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

That may be true in some cases, but very much not true in others. In particular, the US military doesn't seem to have bought any games for their supercomputer, let alone 1700 copies of any games. This may be due to the difficulty of buying games, but it's more likely that simultaneously playing more than a few hundred video games while working in a government lab is not really a very desirable plan.

The "sell razors at a loss, charge a lot for blades" model works fine when the market wants to shave, but not so well when someone figures out how to build a house out of a million razors and no blades.

People who want games will buy them, despite being able to get them without buying them, but people who don't want games won't buy them no matter what.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 19:59 UTC (Thu) by jwarnica (subscriber, #27492) [Link] (6 responses)

It is interesting what people, based on historical accidents (or conspiracies) grow used to. Cell phones, purchased or bundled in 2-3, or 5 year contracts come to mind as a different example. Counter service vs table service a distant example.

The Steam box, half-open as it is, will mean that the next generation of "traditional" consoles will have some significant "business" differences. Steam, on my unique PC, one of a bazillion possible hardware combinations, already does a better job of "just working" than any console I've used of late. So the traditional consoles have lost that battle.

Somethings gotta' give.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 22:47 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (5 responses)

> It is interesting what people, based on historical accidents (or conspiracies) grow used to. Cell phones, purchased or bundled in 2-3, or 5 year contracts come to mind as a different example.

Even more striking example since widely different across different regions.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 11:21 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

And in England (probably the same in most of Europe) we have the choice of buying the phone and putting our own SIM in, or getting a "free" phone on contract.

Oddly enough, both me and my wife have switched from pre-pay to contract, and my brother-in-law is on the verge of doing the same. But the reason is simple, we're switching from dumb phones to smart-phones, and once you take the (real) cost of the phone into account we worked out the phone service (all we *want*, included) is costing us about £2.50/month.

Thing is we're not mad users, so although the included bundle isn't that much, we're not hitting it despite our use of the phone having rocketed since we went contract.

I think, when the two models are free to compete, you get a much better system. And the fact that older people tend to want dumb phones, and younger people want smart phones, means that neither model can "win". Good!

Cheers,
Wol

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 14:48 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

we worked out the phone service (all we *want*, included) is costing us about £2.50/month

Wow. I've avoided getting a smartphone forever, because even the contract options seem to start at about ten times that price for a plan containing any data at all (and without a data allowance, what's the point of a smartphone?).

What on earth is this magic plan?

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 15:10 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

A quick look on Carphone Warehouse's website turns up a Samsung Galaxy S4 16GB contract with 250MB data allowance, unlimited SMS, 300 UK minutes (then an admittedly exorbitant per minute rate), zero up-front cost, on contract with Vodafone for 24 months at £21/month. Carphone Warehouse's sim-free price for a Galaxy S4 is £469.95. 469.95/24 = £19.58.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 14, 2014 15:00 UTC (Fri) by james (guest, #1325) [Link] (1 responses)

Alternatively, there's Three's pay-as-you-go plans at 1p/MB for data, 2p per (outgoing) text, and 3p/min for (outgoing) voice. Every time you top up you get 150 MB free (which lasts for thirty days). Minimum top-up is £5 through the website or mobile app, £10 elsewhere.

I find that I usually only want to use significant amounts of data (or have long phone conversations) when I'm at home or work, and both places I'm on wifi and near landline phones. It's rare for me to get through more than £2 of credit a month.

I'd consider buying an unlocked phone elsewhere, though (the Moto G has good reviews).

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 15, 2014 19:19 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Looks like I need to switch PAYG plans yet again (my current one, switched to only a year ago, is now charging >30p/text!)

This constant mandated switching is really tiresome, and all it shows is that the carriers are much more interested in screwing over their customers than in not annoying the hell out of them.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 10, 2014 2:22 UTC (Mon) by oshepherd (guest, #90163) [Link] (7 responses)

Common industry consensus is that the XBox One is selling above price, and while Sony are taking a hit on the PS4, that hit is small (The selling price is above manufacturing cost, but retailer overheads mean it is selling at a loss), they're only a stones throw (one or two games per console) away from profit.

But they're not going to give up on their DRM, because it works. Eve is not Bob in this case, because all the secrets can be sequestered inside one chip.

It took half a decade to crack the PS3s DRM (And actually, through some "miracle", Sony have managed to quite heavily patch what was once thought to be the "fatal blow"). The 360's DRM is still unbroken (Aside from disk drive hacks which they have fixed in the new consoles).

When Microsoft managed to cram 11 vulnerabilities into 512 bytes of code in the first XBox, they learned. When the PS1 and PS2 were massive hotbeds of piracy, Sony learned too.

Let us not ignore that, Microsoft's backpedaled shenanigans aside, console DRM is not the offensive, in your face, rage inducing, machine wrecking monstrosity that lots of PC DRM is, and it is not built around the false premise of being able to trust a fundamentally untrustable 3rd party machine which contains all three of Bob, Eve and Mallory.

Its' a different kettle of fish.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 10, 2014 16:56 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

The 360's DRM is still unbroken (Aside from disk drive hacks which they have fixed in the new consoles).

That's only true for online games where, indeed, Eve is not Bob. For local games there are a lot of options including modchip which gives you the ability to play games installed on USB-HDD with modifications (e.g. localizations or cheats). If that is not counted as “broken DRM” then what is counted?

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 12, 2014 9:21 UTC (Wed) by Awebb (guest, #95487) [Link] (5 responses)

This is the real reason why those consoles took so long to be cracked: The online stuff is too important. Pirating a game is no longer fun, as you cannot simply burn a disk and be done, you often have to install updates (Skyrim on PS3 for example) and it usually is a pain in the ass to pirate addons and expansions these days.

I really don't care, I have not pirated a console game since I started to earn my own money. I would have used any sort of DRM removal to run other software. How nice would XBMC have been on the PS3? Imagine one single device in your living room for all your multimedia needs! But no, Sony would not have earned money from music and movie sales that way.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 9:48 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (4 responses)

This is the real reason why those consoles took so long to be cracked: The online stuff is too important.

Really? You want to say that XBox360 (which was cracked in a few weeks, then patched, then new versions were “fixed” and then again cracked in a few weeks) it was not important while for PS3 it was superimportant? Are they from different planets or what?

Pirating a game is no longer fun, as you cannot simply burn a disk and be done, you often have to install updates (Skyrim on PS3 for example) and it usually is a pain in the ass to pirate addons and expansions these days.

If that is the reason then why PC games are pirated so much? From what I'm seeing they need updates even more than XBox360 or PS3 games!

People are cracking what they can. Think Wii: it was so badly designed that you can even crack Wii U in Wii compatibilty mode - and, indeed, piracy there was rampant. Singnificantly more than on XBox360, PS3, comparable to PC. Online and need for patches have no stopped anyone.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 11:45 UTC (Thu) by Awebb (guest, #95487) [Link] (2 responses)

Have you tried keeping a non-official PS3 game up to date? Even getting the patches would be a PITA. PC games on the other hand have entire groups of pirates who package and upload every minor patch. PC piracy is a total no-brainer.

That said, I still don't see a way to use the 360 for homebrew without modding the drive (=Darmokles' Sword of being banned on XBL), adding a modchip (are there even any?) without losing online capabilities. Homebrew is usually the big reason to circumvent DRM on consoles, because there we are with this expensive hardware in our living rooms and we cannot do anything with it.

> Online and need for patches have no stopped anyone.
It stopped me from trying anything over the past few years and it stopped me from even buying a PS Vita, because I can either run homebrew on it OR have full integration into the Sony service and all the connection features with the PS3/4. This is also the reason, why I will never buy an i{Phone,Pad} or other mobile store based Apple products.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 14:25 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

I think you need to study logic more.

You claim: This is the real reason why those consoles took so long to be cracked: The online stuff is too important.. This is simple hyphothesis and it's easy and simple to test it: it means that if one console can be cracked while leaving the ability to use it with online and some other console can not be cracked in such a fashion then first console will be cracked quickly and second one will be creacked slowly. We have three consoles: PS3, Wii, and XBox360. First two can not be cracked without losing online capabilities, last one cam be cracked in such a way. Yet one and only one console was uncracked for years: PS3. Both Wii and XBox360 were cracked early on. This means that implication “people was to play online games thus they will not crack their consoles if they could not keep that capability” is false one.

Your point about the fact that some people have just decided that they don't want to play these games and that not all people crack even Wii (which is very easy and simple to crack) is, valid, I'll give you that. All was just a hyperbola on my path: certanly piracy on Wii is more widespread that on XBox360 or PS3, but that because it's much simpler there. You don't need to even open the cover: buy cheap USB stick, install couple of programs - and play games for free! Almost like PC, really.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 19:58 UTC (Thu) by Awebb (guest, #95487) [Link]

I think you need to study talking to people some more (a handy soft skill, even for computer scientists), but I agree on the fact, that the reason I stated is not the only or even the most important one. In fact, I followed the technical side of the PS3 hack a while back, so I know what had to be done in order to provide a software solution to the DRM problem.

Then again, mod chips would have been possible all the years since the console was released, there have even been discussions and concepts in the respective circles, but it was dropped by most with the capabilities to realize it, because the commercial potencial was considered to be not worth the effort, not only because the legislation would allow hunting them down like cheap game, but also because the time for offline-only experiences have been gone for good for a while.

Another fact: Black market blurays and home grown game isos have been around for way longer than the LVo key release (as much as PS3 BD isos have been on the bay for ages), because there have been JTAG based workarounds, just like everybody knows on the Xbox360. It's just that nobody outside the pirate scene really knew much about it, because all this soft modding and clip-on-a-chip mod chips (see WiiKey) really made the masses lazy. It also did not help the homebrew scene, the actual driving force behind console modding, to solve their problems. The homebrew lover is usually the legitimate customer type, who simply wants to do more with those expensive devices.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 13, 2014 14:31 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Are they from different planets or what?

I've been out of mainstream console gaming since graduating in 2010, but the PS3 multiplayer in the dorms tended to be Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and…not much else (I don't think I knew anyone with more than 2 dualshock controllers while plenty had a full set of 4 for the 360). The 360 had a pile of FPS games, XBox Arcade, and more to play online with. So in terms of online gameplay, yes, they were from "different planets".

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 10, 2014 11:34 UTC (Mon) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link]

> ...and start charging real money for the games consoles,

I was under the impression that this is already the case for the latest (2013) crop of consoles?

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 6, 2014 22:13 UTC (Thu) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link]

Love it how they're showing their face "it's not about illegal copying, it's about total control of the device"...

Which, of course, DRM always is. Everyone who thinks otherwise either has an agenda or is delusional.

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 7, 2014 10:40 UTC (Fri) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (2 responses)

> That's because once I buy the device, it's no longer the manufacturer's device. It's mine.

...and, AFAIK, the European style of copyright law says just as much, though it's in legalese and you wouldn't know it from reading the law without special training. But what I learned in a course at my university is that the law explicitly allows you to circumvent the heck out of any crap that prevents you from using a legally obtained copy of a "work". This, in my not-a-lawyer opinion, makes DRM null and void. Not exactly illegal, but unenforceable.

Another thing I learned at that course is that a license or a contract cannot contradict the law (the copyright act), which is rather obvious in retrospect - but the Windows EULA (for a common and convenient example) consist almost entirely of such clauses. Any of these clauses is thus just some ink on dead trees without any significance. All of them can be safely ignored. But people don't know the law and are easily intimidated and people in the Industry (you know who you are) exploit it without remorse.

This is at least the state for my particular country and YMMV. IANAL and stuff as well :)

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 7, 2014 13:43 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

> All of them can be safely ignored.

Where did you find such cheap (as in cost, not personality) lawyers? I can almost guarantee that if you make a business out of ignoring EULA terms, you'll end up being served (usually with a side of media and political mud).

A possible setback for DRM in Europe

Posted Feb 7, 2014 13:55 UTC (Fri) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

> Where did you find such cheap (as in cost, not personality) lawyers? I can almost guarantee that if you make a business out of ignoring EULA terms, you'll end up being served (usually with a side of media and political mud).

Not all of EULA, just all the clauses that contradict the law :) The trick, of course, is to know which these are.