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A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 20:08 UTC (Mon) by donbarry (guest, #10485)
In reply to: A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion by johannbg
Parent article: A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Actually, I think the process is going fairly well. Ian is the outlier on the CTTE, and his efforts to bureaucratically obstruct what is basically a straw poll by the CTTE chair in an attempt to put on the record the sources of division for the larger question are not (at present) finding traction. It has become clear through this entire process that Ubuntu exerts a gravitational pull on the outcome, but it is not at all clear that that will dominate. I'm impressed that most of the contributions amongst the committee are dominated by professionalism and that most of the CTTE committee members appear prepared to listen: and to encourage the airing of this issue further through a GR if necessary.

Democracy is a messy, imperfect system -- until you consider the alternatives. Debian remains my favored distribution, and it is precisely because these sorts of issues, which are hidden and suppressed in other distributions whose puppet-strings remain mostly invisible, can be aired -- and *fixed*.


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A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 20:39 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

> these sorts of issues, which are hidden and suppressed in other
> distributions whose puppet-strings remain mostly invisible, can be aired
> -- and *fixed*.

I read openSUSE, Mageia, Fedora and the Gentoo development mailing lists. It's nice that you like Debian, but what you claim I haven't seen. I think I follow enough distributions to have a pretty good insight into how things are done in other distributions.

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 21:52 UTC (Mon) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Think about it from an outsider looking into the community.

On Friday the 25 Oct 2013 ( over three months ago ) Paul Tagliamonte requested that the tech-ctte voted and decide upon on the default init system for Debian because previous init discussion showed no clear consensus coming out of those discussion and he was worried that dependencies / conflicts would becoming more common and serious for Debians users and how does the CTTE react among themselves and how the community reacts to their opinions. Hey we dont like it so let's go for ( simple ) GR now....

To me playing these politics in the Debian Dynasty is just slowing the integration of the chosen init system down for Jesse and fragmenting the community so in the end Debian Dynasty show is not only loosing it's viewers but also it's actors and as I see it it wont fix anything just lead to more fragmentation...

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 0:17 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link]

3 months has been clearly wasted and some people from upstart camp trying to stall further with the 'further discussion' option, I am not sure what is there to discuss anymore that has not been discussed already and since they are pretty sure they will loose they want to request for a GR.

Ian has been showing unilateral bureaucratic tactics to muddy the situation and looks like he won't stop until he wins with his options. Maybe he should be removed first from being CTTE member, since he showed no intention to vote for a project based on the technicality. After 3 months of discussion he votes sysvinit even before upstart, which is rather appalling.

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 1:30 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Well it looks a bid odd to me that an individual that seeks decisive decision due to fragmentation in the community, to the body which makes the final decision on technical disputes in the Debian project for the community and that technical committee decides to let the community decide this for themselves, the same community that was too fragmented to be able to decide this in the first place, which was the reason that individual needed to seeks decisive decision to begin with. o_O

What purpose does the technical committee serve if it's incapable of making the final decision on needed technical disputes in the community?

What purpose does the technical committee serve if the community is not willing to abide to their ruling?

The technical committee could have easily avoided any kind of stall tactics in this matter by simply saying Jesse wont be released until the chosen init system is properly integrated into all official deliverables ( lives/installation/hands out media ) and at this point delaying the release for those three months this has already taken is probably needed for that.

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 8:09 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

What purpose does the technical committee serve if the community is not willing to abide to their ruling?

Theoretically, if it comes to a GR about the init system, there is now ample documentation by impartial people like Russ Allbery that Debian developers could avail themselves of to form an opinion on what to vote for, so they don't need to rely on propaganda by either the systemd or Upstart camps.

Whether people will actually let their preconceived opinions be influenced by mere facts is, of course, anyone's guess.

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 23:07 UTC (Tue) by misc (subscriber, #73730) [Link]

3 months is nothing for a divisive issue like this, especially since people on the tech-ctte are not paid to work on debian full time ( ie, they have a family, a job, likely both and maybe others debian responsabilities ). The issue is also fairly complex, with I guess enough far reaching implications, and you can hardly rely on what you read on the web to make a quick opinion.

And I am sure that any rushed opinion ( ie, 1 month, maybe 2 ) would have been criticized by some Debian community members due to "not taking the voice of community in account".

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 29, 2014 0:29 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

Some committee members seem to have managed to form a well-considered technical opinion, based on extensive study of the init systems under discussion and their documentation as well as experiments adapting existing services to them, prior to the vote. These people presumably do have day jobs, families, etc. It is unclear why any more time would be needed, other than that there are people on the committee who apparently prefer to drag things out based on procedural and bureaucratic points.

Also, the tech-ctte is supposed to make a decision based on technical facts, rather than »the voice of the community«. The community has spent the last year or so discussing systemd vs. Upstart, mostly generating heat but not anything like a consensus, which is why the issue went to the tech-ctte in the first place. We are looking to the tech-ctte to decide which of the init systems is, in their opinion, technically the best way of moving Debian forward, not which one is most popular with »the community«.


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