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A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 0:41 UTC (Mon) by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
In reply to: A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion by joyuh
Parent article: A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

This is a really poor idea.

Debian shouldn't be sending the message that experts in a particular field aren't welcome to participate in technical committees. Otherwise you'd have the farcical situation that when the question inevitably comes up (as it will in a few years) around whether X sould be replaced as the default, you'd prevent Keith Packard being involved.

Also it's worth noting that the only behaviour that's seemed to me, as an outsider, spectacularly inappropriate during this debate has been Ian Jackson with nonsense like his "if we adopt systemd here's the resolution to declare Lennart a big fat poopy head that goes with it". But Ian isn't a Canonical employee.


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A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 14:51 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Isn't Keith Packard involved with Wayland and be all kinds of +1 for a replacement? It's when people state that nothing could change their mind that their vote needs to be ignored. Here's something that would be enlightening, I think, to ask the TC members: what would it take for you to choose the other system as the blessed PID 1?

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 17:40 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> Isn't Keith Packard involved with Wayland and be all kinds of +1 for a replacement?

Yes. Keith Packard has been a core Xorg developer for decades.

Most Wayland developers are also Xorg developers.

> It's when people state that nothing could change their mind that their vote needs to be ignored.

Maybe the reason they won't change their mind is because they are right?

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 28, 2014 17:54 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Most Wayland developers are also Xorg developers.

I missed "also" in my comment. I'm aware of the overlap; just not to what extent exactly (e.g., I saw no commits by Keith in wayland repos) :) .

> Maybe the reason they won't change their mind is because they are right?

While they may not change their mind as things are now, what is the list of things that systemd would need to do to make Ian Jackson happy[1] (e.g., FreeBSD kernel support, support for an external cgroup manager)? What is the list of things upstart would need to do to make Bdale Garbee happy with it[1] (e.g., fix design flaws, fork into a non-CLA project)?

If the lists are empty then there's no sense including that person in the discussion since they'll never change their mind. If there is a list, you can focus on the relative merit of the items and why they might be more or less important than they are perceived to be in an effort to convince them of the other viewpoint.

[1]I'm not presuming these reasons would be on their list, just that they're something that someone might think is vital for a new PID 1.

A call for votes in the Debian init system discussion

Posted Jan 27, 2014 16:32 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

There's nothing wrong with having the Canonical people participate in the tech-committee discussion. They could, for example, point out technical problems in systemd or explain perceived technical shortcomings in Upstart and why they are not relevant to the question at hand. (Not a lot of that has actually been happening during the discussion, in favour of mud-slinging against the systemd maintainers and promises of what one might possibly add to Upstart to make it more like systemd, but that's neither here nor there.)

Whether the Canonical people should actually vote on an issue that is as fraught with conflict-of-interest as this is a completely different matter. The interesting observation is that the people on the committee who are in favour of systemd as the default, unlike the Upstart supporters, are not obviously affiliated with the systemd project but have apparently come to their preference based on the technical merits of the alternatives under discussion. If there were no (current or former) Canonical employees on the committee at all, the issue might be much less contentious than it seems to be.


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