Another daemon for managing control groups [LWN.net]

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Dec 10, 2013 2:34 UTC (Tue) by dashesy (guest, #74652)
In reply to: Another daemon for managing control groups by cas
Parent article: Another daemon for managing control groups

someone saying "i don't want to run journald"

Is analogous to "i don't want to eat my apple". It is like whining about kernel threads being running without being manually spawned, even though they do not hurt the performance or anything. Only if one has OCD, should care to control every single process running on a system.
Try it, it is one of the great things that happened to Linux and it is good for you.

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Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Dec 10, 2013 2:47 UTC (Tue) by cas (guest, #52554) [Link] (2 responses)

and here, along with the "response" by HelloWorld is a major part of the problem with systemd advocates.

*EVERY* *SINGLE* *OBJECTION* *TO* *ANYTHING* *ABOUT* *SYSTEMD* is dismissed with exactly the same unjustifiably arrogant 'we know better than you so just shut the fuck up and get with the program' response.

oddly enough, this is not likely to inspire any kind of trust or confidence.

worse, you lie. you say "oh, that's optional". except that it isn't optional. you can't disable journald. and if you try to disable logind or any of the other parts of systemd, you will break something - with a good chance of fucking up systemd so completely that it will fail to boot.

that does not meet the definition of "optional".

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Dec 10, 2013 3:10 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> oddly enough, this is not likely to inspire any kind of trust or confidence.

Oddly enough, neither are raising objections that are plainly not supported by facts and have been debunked ad-nauseum.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 20:41 UTC (Fri) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

I think before you go off on another sweary rant about the quality of discussion you might want to consider raising your own.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Dec 10, 2013 7:33 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (7 responses)

Try it, it is one of the great things that happened to Linux and it is good for you.

Doesn't matter. What matters is that it (a) was developed by Lennart Poettering, and (b) is not like syslogd, so must be bad – who cares if it comes with all sorts of compatibility features?

It's not as if these people could come up with a technical argument why systemd's journal (or indeed systemd in general) isn't a reasonable idea overall if their life depended on it. Bashing the very concept on general principles is their thing, and it is probably best to ignore them until they manage to find something to say that has actual substance.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Dec 10, 2013 7:44 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

There is an argument to be made about too tight dependency on journald.

Systemd overall is a great idea, devil is in the details. As usual. And one of these small details is boneheaded attitude towards cgroups sharing with other actors.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 20:43 UTC (Fri) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (5 responses)

There's a reasonable objection to be made about binary logging formats - system recovery and general analysis can be vastly more painful with such. It's a toss-up, because in many day-to-day cases journald's filtering is a win. But it's hardly an invalid complaint, unless you're considering "how we use logs to do our job" to be a non-technical complain, which would seem to be stretching.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 20:50 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (2 responses)

This is a reasonable place to do a risk analysis, how difficult is it to run the tool that can handle the file format of journald on a system that may not be working 100%, how often are the local logs not going to be sent via syslog to a central location? I don't think the designers of this would have done it this way unless they were convinced this was still a win but it's a discussion that can be had.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 21:53 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

rsyslog can get the logs from journald very rapidly, pretty close to real-time.

the designers of journald didn't have any idea what rsyslog, syslog-ng and similar logging daemons were able to do at the time they started journald, their justification of journald is full of "syslog can't do this" arguments that were true of traditional syslog, but not true on any of the modern syslog daemons.

journald works pretty well for a single machine personal system, but it was built in ignorance of how logging works in larger environments.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 22:06 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link]

> journald works pretty well for a single machine personal system, but it was built in ignorance of how logging works in larger environments.

Maybe you are right but it seems that when the systemd developers do something they do a ton of research before hand before committing resources. In any event it is pretty plain and stated that the journal isn't even trying to deal with networked logging or larger environments, it's main use case is the single personal machine, and capturing logs from early-boot which are normally lost. You don't judge a fish by how well it can climb trees.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 21:50 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

I would believe this more if there hadn't been a bug that prevented you from accessing the journald binary logs that went undetected for several months until it made it into a Fedora release that included rsyslog reading the files and going into a endless loop doing so (the journald tools also went into an endless loop, so you can't just call this a rsyslog bug)

This tells me that the people working on this are not actually using these tools enough.

Another daemon for managing control groups

Posted Jan 3, 2014 21:54 UTC (Fri) by mchapman (subscriber, #66589) [Link]

> This tells me that the people working on this are not actually using these tools enough.

That is as ludicrous as saying any long-standing bug in the kernel shows that the kernel developers don't use Linux enough.

Bugs happen. People fix them (or at least, *should* fix them) when they discover them, not before.