|
|
Log in / Subscribe / Register

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 16:15 UTC (Sat) by marcel.oliver (subscriber, #5441)
Parent article: Cinnamon 2.0 released

As a generally happy cinnamon user, I read this announcement with mixed feelings. It appears that Cinnamon and plain Gnome 3 are moving apart further, and I worry about long-term sustainability.

The quick emergence of cinnamon has shown that the underlying technology is sound, and that the differences between the desktops were more a matter of politics than of technology, and only appeared at the top interface layer. Now it appears that Cinnamon developers are shouldering an increasing burden of maintaining infrastructure as well, which I don't see as a good thing.

I had always been hopeful that the best parts of Cinnamon, Gnome Classic, and Gnome 3 could be merged into a single desktop environment. If not by upstream, then at least by distributions, with the same reasoning that distributions tend to use system libraries, and sometimes a broader perspective might be required to get the respective upstreams out of their NIH syndrome.

I am not someone who knows very much about the internals of these projects, but I cannot help wondering about a few things:

  • Why does it take a full-fledged fork of nautilus? Apparently, the nautilus developers removed some features which I never knew existed, but were apparently useful for some people. On the other hand, great features like spatial mode or rabbitsvn in the file browser stopped working, or stopped working properly, and now there are two file browsers which appear both as "Files" in my Fedora menues, are similarly deficient relative to Gnome 2 nautilus, and are started in a seemingly random fashion (automouting in Fedora appears to start nautilus, while the cinnamon taskbar starts nemo) and it turns out they just look the same to me, both distinctly inferior to the old nautilus. So if one spends effort in fixing nautilus, why not fix things like rabbitsvn or spatial mode rather than maintaining minor cosmetic differences?
  • Why can't Gnome classic build on the Cinnamon taskbar which has working right-click (that's a killer feature of Cinnamon relative to Gnome classic), why does it need to cook its own inferior version?
  • Why can't Gnome classic learn from Cinnamon regarding multi-screen support which Cinnamon get more or less right and Gnome still hasn't (last I checked after installation of Fedora 19 this summer).
  • Why does vertical maximize appear only in Cinnamon (and hidden there in the options) when it is truly a killer feature (which already existed in fvwm in the early 90s, btw) for work on modern wide-screen monitors where a full maximize is neither pretty nor convenient?
All of this is really trivial stuff from today's perspective, as it has been solved years ago. Now people spend enormous effort on maintaining diverging Gnome desktop environments none of which comes up first on all counts (for me, Cinnamon still works best, but the level of routine breakage in Fedora is too high to feel very relaxed about), and none of which guarantees long-term stability. (With long-term stability, I mean both a large enough developer and user base, and a demonstrated strategy of keeping the user facing features as stable as reasonably possible.)

One other thing which worries me about Cinnamon is that it seems to be adding "features" at an enormous rate. But it is really more important to establish good defaults (which Cinnamon does rather well from my perspective) and a limited number of options for items where there is a rational need for being able to change them. This is not just a Cinnamon issue, but requires a discussion across desktop environments to come to a small number of modes of operation which work across different environments and even operating systems: for a lot of things it does not matter which way they are done. In those cases, they should work the same independent of desktop environment. In other cases, a working paradigm should be identified and a clean switch implemented, where each paradigm strives for a best-practice no-surprises implementation.

To put the problem into different words: I believe the Linux desktop (as an ecosystem) suffers from attention at the wrong level. People fiddle with the window management layer when the real issues are at the application level on the one hand, and on the system management level on the other hand (which should be independent of the desktop environment, but here the various desktop environments all suffer from mission creep). Cinnamon, just to keep my rant close to the original article, is suddenly doing its own user management dialog for no user-visible benefit. Another example which irks me for a long time is lack of a good default document reader on any of the Gnome platforms: evince, whenever I tried it, has had stability problems and also lacks "trim margins" which provides such a usability boost that I remember after seeing it once, there was simply no going back to evince. The solutions is probably that desktop environments should get out of the business of rolling their own applications whenever they cannot provide a best-of-breed solution for lack of resources (in the realm of free document readers, that's clearly okular - it uses QT, but so what?).

Maybe distributions need to steer against this trend of desktop environments trying to do everything, badly. As users, for the better or worse, we are working in heterogeneous environments anyway, so consistency (or "branding") is only relevant relative to external, best-of-breed applications, not so much within the desktop environment as that is really orthogonal to the day-to-day user experience.


to post comments

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 17:06 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link] (5 responses)

I don't really have an insight into how Cinnamon is developed, but it seems to me that stuff is being forked when it's absolutely necessary, either with regard to features needed (Nemo) or when you need a stable platform to have Cinnamon run on other distros (Cinnamon-settings-daemon). The idea that the Cinnamon devs may want to fork gtk+ or clutter is simply hilarious IMHO.

That said, the current situation is exactly what you get when everybody has a "vision" to accomplish, no matter what. At least Clem is listening to his users and I won't fault him for trying to do what he thinks it's best for Linux Mint and Cinnamon.

Rehdon

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 8:17 UTC (Mon) by marcel.oliver (subscriber, #5441) [Link] (4 responses)

That said, the current situation is exactly what you get when everybody has a "vision" to accomplish, no matter what.

That is more or less what I am lamenting. In this entire game, I believe that Clem and others have done an excellent job and have shown good taste regarding the choices they made. Still, I worry where this is going long-term. With Cinnamon, Gnome Classic, Gnome 3, and Unity there are now four "modern" essentially Gnome-based desktops, in addition to KDE (which is actually quite good, but does not appeal as much to me in their default choices and estetics) and the legacy and more light-weight desktops. Why can't they get together and come up with something which caters at least to the entire spectrum of the old Gnome 2 user base?

The point I want to make is that they seem to be so incredibly close, but move away from each other rather than together. I am looking at particular at Fedora as one of the big players to show some leadership here. However, while they have done a lot of good directed (if sometimes controversial) work on other parts of the stack, it appears that they have deferred responsibility for the desktop entirely to the various upstreams, which at least from the perspective of a Fedora user has set the Linux desktop back by at least four or five years.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 13:42 UTC (Mon) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (2 responses)

    while they have done a lot of good directed (if sometimes controversial) work on other parts of the stack, it appears that they have deferred responsibility for the desktop entirely to the various upstreams, which at least from the perspective of a Fedora user has set the Linux desktop back by at least four or five years.

Red Hat employs a very sizeable (if not the largest) chunk of Fedora developers. Red Hat makes money from servers, and Fedora acts as a testing sandbox for various server-focused technologies (ie. Fedora is a perpetual alpha for RHEL). Red Hat doesn't really make money from the desktop, and hence it doesn't care about desktops.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:13 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Red Hat doesn't really make money from the desktop, and hence it doesn't care about desktops.

They do care about the desktop -- or rather, workstations -- Granted, the license costs of a RHEL instance is a rounding error on the per-seat fees for high-end EDA and CAD software.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:28 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

That's odd then because not only Fedora is ahead of the game when it comes to new desktop relevant technologies like graphics (even things like Arch play catch up), but offers the one of the best and cleanest desktop experiences out there.

It seems to me much more desktop oriented then server oriented.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:11 UTC (Mon) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

You make another good point, but I guess you know the answer already for this question:

"Why can't they get together and come up with something which caters at least to the entire spectrum of the old Gnome 2 user base?"

and you don't like it. Me neither, but again I think Clem is the last one to fault here, because he's always been extremely respectful of the work upstream was doing, explaining his choices on purely technical grounds.

Yeah, big egos are getting in the way of a sane cooperation / competition and it's a pity that we're getting more fragmentation on the desktop instead of *less*. As a user, I'm voting with my feet and with my wallet, and both go towards Cinnamon at the moment.

Rehdon

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 17:54 UTC (Sat) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] (7 responses)

> Why does vertical maximize appear only in Cinnamon (and hidden there in the options) when it is truly a killer feature (which already existed in fvwm in the early 90s, btw) for work on modern wide-screen monitors where a full maximize is neither pretty nor convenient?

Rather a footnote in window management, but now that you bring it up... not only has vertical maximize become more useful with widescreen monitors, but horizontal maximize has become less useful for the same reasons. This unfortunately has coincided with lower usage of "real" 3-button mice (replaced by scroll wheels, higher laptop usage, etc.). Most window managers use the middle button for vertical maximization, right for horizontal, so the more useful action is accessed in a less convenient way -- chording both buttons, or trying to press the scroll wheel without moving it, etc.

(Parenthetical note: some window managers allow mouse buttons to be remapped, but this is so obvious that I didn't mention it (except I did).)

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 18:24 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

"(Parenthetical note: some window managers allow mouse buttons to be remapped, but this is so obvious that I didn't mention it (except I did).)"

This page intentionally left blank. ;)

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 13, 2013 13:39 UTC (Sun) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (5 responses)

It is quite easy to emulate 3 buttons on a touchpad, but no distro make that easy: (tap -> Button1, Left button->Button2, Right button->Button3).

Desktop environment should try to appeal to users that do not like Windows/OS X, because the others will keep using Windows/OS X no matter what. Unfortunately they tend to aim at the opposite, due to the mistaken notion the later group is larger than the former.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 12:14 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (4 responses)

I'd rather use something which has its own ideas instead of just being anti or pro something else.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 19:23 UTC (Wed) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (3 responses)

It would be more satisfying if you, as a GNOME 3 representative, tried to answer the actual question (vertical maximise), rather than a tangentiality.

Of course I'm not at any liberty to ask you of anything. So, just a note.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 20:13 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (2 responses)

The reason for not answering is simple, I don't know. Answering "I don't know" is pointless noise.

Checked it a bit, Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts → Windows allows you to assign a keyboard shortcut to do vertical or horizontal maximization.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 20:24 UTC (Wed) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (1 responses)

Thank you!

I know I used vertical maximization in Gnome 3, until it disappeared from my perception -- I believe that happened around 3.8. But the kind I used was triggered by double-clicking the titlebar (titlebar double-click action was configurable). I expected that it was removed altogether, rather than relegated to a keyboard-only action..

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 19, 2013 17:35 UTC (Sat) by james (guest, #1325) [Link]

The Gnome tweak tool allows you to restore this action through a simple GUI. In Fedora (19), this is in the gnome-tweak-tool package.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 15, 2013 14:10 UTC (Tue) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (4 responses)

I agree with the notion that desktops and applications should be separate. In fact, this is where KDE is heading. KDE Frameworks 5 and Plasma Workspaces 2 and the KDE applications are developed and released separately.

It is unfortunate that the Gtk/Qt schism persists to this day, preventing applications from integrating well with KDE Plasma/Gnome respectively. But nobody seems to even have acknowledged that this is a problem, much less started doing something about it.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 15, 2013 22:35 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (3 responses)

Various desktop environments have been working together for loads of years on freedesktop.org. As a result we have agreed on various standards. See http://standards.freedesktop.org/.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 14:22 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm still getting a Gtk style file picker dialog on my KDE desktop. Gtk still isn't able to use Qt's themes. Third-party Gtk widgets can't be used in a Qt program, or vice versa. So I'm sorry, but the standardisation approach just doesn't work, one of the toolkits needs to go. High-profile projects like VLC and Wireshark chose to migrate from Gtk to Qt, so I hope for that trend to continue.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 14:36 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

In GTK+3.x a lot of work is going on to allow themes to make use of CSS. Thereby breaking the themes a lot, but eventually it will quiet down.

Anyway, people work on whatever they want to work on.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 16:08 UTC (Thu) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link]

> Gtk still isn't able to use Qt's themes

FWIW, there has been some parallel work to accomplish the same goal, e.g. QGtkStyle (GTK styling for Qt apps) and Oxygen-GTK (use of the default KDE style in GTK applications). However, it may just be my perception, but it does seem like this work seems to be mostly done by the KDE/Qt camp.


Copyright © 2026, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds