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Cinnamon 2.0 released

Version 2.0 of the Cinnamon desktop has been released. There are some improvements in features like edge tiling, edge snapping, user account management, and more, but much of the work in this release appears to have been done to the supporting infrastructure. "Prior to version 2.0, and similar to Shell or Unity, Cinnamon was a frontend on top of the GNOME desktop. In version 2.0, and similar to MATE or Xfce, Cinnamon is an entire desktop environment built on GNOME technologies. It still uses toolkits and libraries such as GTK or Clutter and it is still compatible with all GNOME applications, but it no longer requires GNOME itself to be installed. It now communicates directly with its own backend services, libraries and daemons: cinnamon-desktop, cinnamon-session and cinnamon-settings-daemon."

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Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 14:53 UTC (Fri) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link] (2 responses)

This is great news and thanks to all Cinnamon folks for the marvelous job! I am using it since Fedora15, and it is a delight. I wish to see a Cinnamon spin here, or at least here soon. I do not know about the politics, but custom kick-starter files work like charm, sure it should not be that difficult to put together another one.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 13, 2013 16:02 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] (1 responses)

Well I do a sort of a spin based on ALT Linux, Cinnamon 2.0 should land in the corresponding regular image this Wednesday and the preliminary build results run just fine.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 15, 2013 14:14 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

Be careful when packaging though. Loads of Cinnamon 2.0 components are configured to start under GNOME. If you ship Cinnamon as well as GNOME, having both installed will make Cinnamon break GNOME. Make sure to look and fix the .desktop files (specially the ones in xdg autostart folder) when trying to package Cinnamon.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 16:22 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Cinnamon is a great desktop, feels right at home both on my big multimonitor workstation and my netbook. These guys have been working hard and producing results so I sent a fat (for me) donation.

A year ago I was scared to death I was going to have to have to buy Macs just to have a familiar, reliable desktop that doesn't require extensions and configuration. That feels like so long ago!

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 17:56 UTC (Fri) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]

Congratulations! Good work Cinnamon team!

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 18:34 UTC (Fri) by krakensden (guest, #72039) [Link]

The fact that they have to fork gsd to make things work is sort of saddening. Are they planning on trying to ship patches upstream, or is it a permanent thing?

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 20:02 UTC (Fri) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link] (19 responses)

Hope Cinnamon developers can get actively involved onn gtk+ and Clutter development so they can have voices and influence the development of toolkits so these are not just developed by people only caring about GNOME shell. This is also for Cinnamon's own benefit

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 22:13 UTC (Fri) by kugel (subscriber, #70540) [Link] (18 responses)

They'd rather fork these projects. Collaborating with upstream isn't their thing.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 12, 2013 0:25 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (7 responses)

Well, upstream must devote some attention to stability and backward compatibility to make collaboration productive. If there's a lack of collaboration, that doesn't mean it's entirely Cinnamon's fault.

Put more succinctly, collaborating with hipsters is hard. :)

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 12, 2013 11:14 UTC (Sat) by misc (subscriber, #73730) [Link] (6 responses)

We also do not see Mint pushing back to Ubuntu, so there is likely a lot of hipster that prevent Cinnamon/Mint from contributing. And given others manage to contribute back, I guess there is maybe not a problem on upstream.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 12, 2013 13:26 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (5 responses)

If the differentiation is getting them money, they do have a negative incentive to push anything back upstream.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 13, 2013 16:07 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] (4 responses)

They're just sane and GNOME3 developers seem to have been slowly regaining remnants of their sanity after being that deaf for too many years, no wonder.

That particular fedora/gnome organism who screwed XKB and ditched Sergey Udaltsov as the appropriate maintainer is a quite bright example of insanity in case you would ask for one.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 13, 2013 22:03 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (3 responses)

GNOME has been getting such complains pretty much since 2.0.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:56 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

The most hilarious aspect of this is that they got a huge amount of shit when they abandoned Sawfish for Metacity because Metacity was extremely simple and non-extensible while Sawfish was very complicated and completely scriptable.

Now that Gnome has gone back to a fully scripted WM people bitch and moan there there isn't a huge configuration GUI application built into it that will instantly allow them to tweak the desktop how they like it.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 20:28 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

You really don't see the common thread?

People hate change. Especially when it's poorly explained and seems driven by fluff.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 17, 2013 16:20 UTC (Thu) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link]

> Now that Gnome has gone back to a fully scripted WM people bitch and moan there there isn't a huge configuration GUI application built into it that will instantly allow them to tweak the desktop how they like it.

That's… an entirely interesting interpretation of the bitching and moaning I've seen.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 13, 2013 22:02 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (9 responses)

GNOME has an entire extension infrastructure in place.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 0:46 UTC (Mon) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (8 responses)

    GNOME has an entire extension infrastructure in place.

Which has an unstable API (changes every release), meaning that it's not a good base for carrying the amount of functionality and UI alterations/enhancements that Cinnamon strives to provide.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 8:07 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (7 responses)

An unstable API is not a given that it cannot be relied upon for Cinnamon. If the needs are shared with GNOME, we can look into things. What was done instead is a fork of gnome-shell. Due to Wayland, things are being shuffled around between the various GNOME components (usually to gnome-shell). Externally, we still provide the same APIs (e.g. the screenshot bit moved, but the d-bus API is the same).

As Cinnamon forked gnome-shell and things are being shuffled, you basically need to incorporate the same changes. Which GNOME handles for you if you use the extensions infrastructure.

Not speaking against forking. People are totally fine to do that. But then don't forget that we do have an API. The API is not perfect, but that's because things change when needed, like Wayland. Eventually those changes will quiet down. At the moment Cinnamon seems to solve everything by forking. But then you don't get the bugfixes as well and from what I've read, they don't merge bugfixes from GNOME into their fork.

To me:
1. Don't fork, rely on extensions API, make needs known. Some maintenance work needed, but you do get new technology for free (Wayland) as well as bugfixes.
2. Fork. Fork more components as things change. Maintenance includes keeping up with bugfixes made upstream.
3. Anything else. Could even just branch gnome-shell. E.g. mutter-wayland is just a branch in the mutter repository.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 9:28 UTC (Mon) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (4 responses)

    The API is not perfect, but that's because things change when needed, like Wayland. Eventually those changes will quiet down.

The problem is that Gnome doesn't have the greatest reputation here. "Eventually" is rather ambiguous. Is it 6 months from now, 1 year or 2 years? People don't have that much patience. Instead, they want to ship something usable today, without continually adjusting to other parties that have their APIs in continuous flux. It's too tiring, and frankly, frustrating.

This brings another question. When Gnome 3 was released, Gnome 2 was declared abandonware, even though it was stable and proven technology. If and when the Gnome 4 experimentation starts, will the "finally finished" Gnome 3 also suffer the same fate as Gnome 2, or is it going to be declared as supported, stable, and parallel installable with the "work in progress" Gnome 4 ?

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 10:03 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (3 responses)

A lot what you're asking is already addressed in my reply.

I'll try again and say what I said before:
1. Currently Cinnamon forked things and doesn't do much maintenance on their fork. E.g. bugfixes made in gnome-shell are not merged in Cinnamon.
2. If you do fork, then there is an increased maintenance burden (merge of bugfixes, merge of changes in infrastructure).
3. If you fork, then there will be a bit of maintenance you have to do. It is not going to be free.

Your question regarding GNOME 2: For GNOME 3, a lot of components were ported to GTK+3, then a small change was made in configure.ac, the result was declared "GNOME 3". This is highly similar to any GNOME release. No matter if that's a 2.x release, or a 3.x release.

If you want GNOME 2.x, then this is maintained by MATE. We (also me personally) have ensured that they can use GNOME infrastructure. Note that a lot of things they do, is actually just merging the things that were already done just before putting a "3" and a "0" in various configure.ac files. It just that they forked too early.

Since a few GNOME releases, maintainers do maintain the stable version of GNOME for a little bit longer. E.g. GNOME 3.10.0 is out, but there are still individual releases going out for 3.8.x. That is pretty unique historically.

If we decide Wayland is awesomely cool, maybe we'll change the version number from 3.12 to 4.0 to indicate a major feature change. Practically, a major release allows us to get rid of deprecated functionality, nothing more. For version numbering, a major release is usually done to indicate major feature change.

In any case, there is not a huge change between GNOME versions. And 2.32 -> 3.0 was not a huge change for the majority of the components. So to answer your question: Look at the MATE maintenance and how much is (or could be done) by merging code.

Note that Abandonware term implies that we don't care about copyright of GNOME 2, which is not true.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 13:27 UTC (Mon) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (2 responses)

    1. Currently Cinnamon forked things and doesn't do much maintenance on their fork. E.g. bugfixes made in gnome-shell are not merged in Cinnamon. 2. If you do fork, then there is an increased maintenance burden (merge of bugfixes, merge of changes in infrastructure). 3. If you fork, then there will be a bit of maintenance you have to do. It is not going to be free.

I agree that forking has downsides such as increased maintenance effort, which can be considered as a form of cost. It shouldn't be done without weighing up the pros and cons.

The point I was trying to make is that perhaps the overall cost of forking (resulting in control over the API) in this case is actually lower than the cost of working with a continuously shifting/unstable upstream API. The cost of coordination with other organisations / developers should not be assumed to be trivial, especially when development directions are not well aligned.

On top of that, the current reputation of Gnome developers (whether deserved or not) is that they're not exactly open to outside ideas. This dissuades people from submitting upstream. It would take time and effort to dispel this.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:01 UTC (Mon) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link] (1 responses)

Also I think you're spot on with your remark about Gnome 2 being abandoned when 3 came out, it surely is a powerful caveat (although, to be fair, moving to a new paradigm makes sense ... throwing the baby with the dirty water less so :).

Rehdon

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 14, 2013 18:13 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

Didn't you read my reply? GNOME never supported anything longer than 6 months. Aside from this, a lot of work MATE is doing could (is?) have been done by taking the code developed after they forked it (they forked too early and too much).

Now for some interesting tidbit:
There is a conflict in the way MATE forked gnome-keyring into mate-keyring which makes d-bus start mate-keyring while the program was expecting gnome-keyring.

This bug was reported last week in Mageia. Bugs of course happen, but there are persons who often suggest that we went out of our way to not allow both to be used at the same time. However, we never supported that. And for the most part, we continued maintenance in the new release. It had gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel. The biggest technical changes were done partly in 2.x releases (moving to gsettings) and 3.8 (killing fallback mode). In 3.0 the major new thing was gtk+3.x. However, the preparation work was also done during 2.x.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 17, 2013 16:22 UTC (Thu) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] (1 responses)

It would be great if the Extensions API could be better documented, fwiw. Last I looked I found it astonishingly difficult to figure out what you could do or how you should approach doing it. When reading the shell source is your best option, there's a documentation problem.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 17, 2013 19:01 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

I totally agree. At the moment you can do *anything*. Which means that anything can break between releases. It would be nice to just offer a minimal set with a stable API, then if you divert from that, you can, but can break. This probably means someone going through the existing extensions and determine what things are needed. This would at least make things clear for extension developers.

It would be nice if we had a team focussing on the developer experience. Documentating APIs, ensuring it is nice to work with, etc. Seems that the developers always have other things to focus upon (new applications, Wayland, getting rid of fallback mode, etc). IMO such detail belongs to a different type of team. Meaning: spend 90% of time to make a nice interface, another 90% getting the details right ;)

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 11, 2013 23:41 UTC (Fri) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (1 responses)

Hopefully cinnamon-screensaver has been improved... this morning I discovered it was chewing up 14% or so of my RAM; 400+MB _resident_ (Mint 15). I've been logged in to this session for almost a month, but really... that's a lot of memory for a screensaver application (especially since the display just turns off--no screensaver programs actually run).

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 13, 2013 22:06 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

Did you file a bug on this?Something like that should be noticed by upstream. However, could very well be some other component that is leaking. It is best to always file bugs.

Example: I thought something was leaking a lot, but other components were updated and since the leaking stopped. My problem seemed to be caused by an unstable Mesa, but I'm just guessing.

Better

Posted Oct 11, 2013 23:42 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (2 responses)

This is great news! When I last tried Cinnamon, it was too buggy to use, and I ended up on Mate. Now that they have taken control of their underpinnings, they can promise a good experience.

It's time to try it again.

Better

Posted Oct 12, 2013 14:57 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

Definitely. I've been using it since the start, and it's been getting better and better. I also like how they have a balanced relationship with their users: not every idea is accepted, or gets implemented (mainly because of lack of manpower), but users are surely listened to. A breath of fresh air after ... well I won't beat a dead horse ;)

Rehdon

Better

Posted Oct 12, 2013 18:45 UTC (Sat) by maney (subscriber, #12630) [Link]

I don't recall running into Cinnamon bugs, as such - when I gave it a try, what bothered me was that too much of crud from Gnome 3 showed through. Okay, so they changed the crud to have a green tint - that's not a color scheme I care for. ;-/

What I find most interesting here is a suggestion that Cinnamon seems to be moving in the direction that Mate took from the beginning - using sane infrastructure that they control rather than a seething mass of libraries controlled by ADD teenagers who are more interested in what's new and different than in what's time tested and proven. Perhaps there will be Grand Unification somewhere down the road?

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 16:15 UTC (Sat) by marcel.oliver (subscriber, #5441) [Link] (19 responses)

As a generally happy cinnamon user, I read this announcement with mixed feelings. It appears that Cinnamon and plain Gnome 3 are moving apart further, and I worry about long-term sustainability.

The quick emergence of cinnamon has shown that the underlying technology is sound, and that the differences between the desktops were more a matter of politics than of technology, and only appeared at the top interface layer. Now it appears that Cinnamon developers are shouldering an increasing burden of maintaining infrastructure as well, which I don't see as a good thing.

I had always been hopeful that the best parts of Cinnamon, Gnome Classic, and Gnome 3 could be merged into a single desktop environment. If not by upstream, then at least by distributions, with the same reasoning that distributions tend to use system libraries, and sometimes a broader perspective might be required to get the respective upstreams out of their NIH syndrome.

I am not someone who knows very much about the internals of these projects, but I cannot help wondering about a few things:

  • Why does it take a full-fledged fork of nautilus? Apparently, the nautilus developers removed some features which I never knew existed, but were apparently useful for some people. On the other hand, great features like spatial mode or rabbitsvn in the file browser stopped working, or stopped working properly, and now there are two file browsers which appear both as "Files" in my Fedora menues, are similarly deficient relative to Gnome 2 nautilus, and are started in a seemingly random fashion (automouting in Fedora appears to start nautilus, while the cinnamon taskbar starts nemo) and it turns out they just look the same to me, both distinctly inferior to the old nautilus. So if one spends effort in fixing nautilus, why not fix things like rabbitsvn or spatial mode rather than maintaining minor cosmetic differences?
  • Why can't Gnome classic build on the Cinnamon taskbar which has working right-click (that's a killer feature of Cinnamon relative to Gnome classic), why does it need to cook its own inferior version?
  • Why can't Gnome classic learn from Cinnamon regarding multi-screen support which Cinnamon get more or less right and Gnome still hasn't (last I checked after installation of Fedora 19 this summer).
  • Why does vertical maximize appear only in Cinnamon (and hidden there in the options) when it is truly a killer feature (which already existed in fvwm in the early 90s, btw) for work on modern wide-screen monitors where a full maximize is neither pretty nor convenient?
All of this is really trivial stuff from today's perspective, as it has been solved years ago. Now people spend enormous effort on maintaining diverging Gnome desktop environments none of which comes up first on all counts (for me, Cinnamon still works best, but the level of routine breakage in Fedora is too high to feel very relaxed about), and none of which guarantees long-term stability. (With long-term stability, I mean both a large enough developer and user base, and a demonstrated strategy of keeping the user facing features as stable as reasonably possible.)

One other thing which worries me about Cinnamon is that it seems to be adding "features" at an enormous rate. But it is really more important to establish good defaults (which Cinnamon does rather well from my perspective) and a limited number of options for items where there is a rational need for being able to change them. This is not just a Cinnamon issue, but requires a discussion across desktop environments to come to a small number of modes of operation which work across different environments and even operating systems: for a lot of things it does not matter which way they are done. In those cases, they should work the same independent of desktop environment. In other cases, a working paradigm should be identified and a clean switch implemented, where each paradigm strives for a best-practice no-surprises implementation.

To put the problem into different words: I believe the Linux desktop (as an ecosystem) suffers from attention at the wrong level. People fiddle with the window management layer when the real issues are at the application level on the one hand, and on the system management level on the other hand (which should be independent of the desktop environment, but here the various desktop environments all suffer from mission creep). Cinnamon, just to keep my rant close to the original article, is suddenly doing its own user management dialog for no user-visible benefit. Another example which irks me for a long time is lack of a good default document reader on any of the Gnome platforms: evince, whenever I tried it, has had stability problems and also lacks "trim margins" which provides such a usability boost that I remember after seeing it once, there was simply no going back to evince. The solutions is probably that desktop environments should get out of the business of rolling their own applications whenever they cannot provide a best-of-breed solution for lack of resources (in the realm of free document readers, that's clearly okular - it uses QT, but so what?).

Maybe distributions need to steer against this trend of desktop environments trying to do everything, badly. As users, for the better or worse, we are working in heterogeneous environments anyway, so consistency (or "branding") is only relevant relative to external, best-of-breed applications, not so much within the desktop environment as that is really orthogonal to the day-to-day user experience.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 17:06 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link] (5 responses)

I don't really have an insight into how Cinnamon is developed, but it seems to me that stuff is being forked when it's absolutely necessary, either with regard to features needed (Nemo) or when you need a stable platform to have Cinnamon run on other distros (Cinnamon-settings-daemon). The idea that the Cinnamon devs may want to fork gtk+ or clutter is simply hilarious IMHO.

That said, the current situation is exactly what you get when everybody has a "vision" to accomplish, no matter what. At least Clem is listening to his users and I won't fault him for trying to do what he thinks it's best for Linux Mint and Cinnamon.

Rehdon

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 8:17 UTC (Mon) by marcel.oliver (subscriber, #5441) [Link] (4 responses)

That said, the current situation is exactly what you get when everybody has a "vision" to accomplish, no matter what.

That is more or less what I am lamenting. In this entire game, I believe that Clem and others have done an excellent job and have shown good taste regarding the choices they made. Still, I worry where this is going long-term. With Cinnamon, Gnome Classic, Gnome 3, and Unity there are now four "modern" essentially Gnome-based desktops, in addition to KDE (which is actually quite good, but does not appeal as much to me in their default choices and estetics) and the legacy and more light-weight desktops. Why can't they get together and come up with something which caters at least to the entire spectrum of the old Gnome 2 user base?

The point I want to make is that they seem to be so incredibly close, but move away from each other rather than together. I am looking at particular at Fedora as one of the big players to show some leadership here. However, while they have done a lot of good directed (if sometimes controversial) work on other parts of the stack, it appears that they have deferred responsibility for the desktop entirely to the various upstreams, which at least from the perspective of a Fedora user has set the Linux desktop back by at least four or five years.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 13:42 UTC (Mon) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (2 responses)

    while they have done a lot of good directed (if sometimes controversial) work on other parts of the stack, it appears that they have deferred responsibility for the desktop entirely to the various upstreams, which at least from the perspective of a Fedora user has set the Linux desktop back by at least four or five years.

Red Hat employs a very sizeable (if not the largest) chunk of Fedora developers. Red Hat makes money from servers, and Fedora acts as a testing sandbox for various server-focused technologies (ie. Fedora is a perpetual alpha for RHEL). Red Hat doesn't really make money from the desktop, and hence it doesn't care about desktops.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:13 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Red Hat doesn't really make money from the desktop, and hence it doesn't care about desktops.

They do care about the desktop -- or rather, workstations -- Granted, the license costs of a RHEL instance is a rounding error on the per-seat fees for high-end EDA and CAD software.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:28 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

That's odd then because not only Fedora is ahead of the game when it comes to new desktop relevant technologies like graphics (even things like Arch play catch up), but offers the one of the best and cleanest desktop experiences out there.

It seems to me much more desktop oriented then server oriented.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 17:11 UTC (Mon) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

You make another good point, but I guess you know the answer already for this question:

"Why can't they get together and come up with something which caters at least to the entire spectrum of the old Gnome 2 user base?"

and you don't like it. Me neither, but again I think Clem is the last one to fault here, because he's always been extremely respectful of the work upstream was doing, explaining his choices on purely technical grounds.

Yeah, big egos are getting in the way of a sane cooperation / competition and it's a pity that we're getting more fragmentation on the desktop instead of *less*. As a user, I'm voting with my feet and with my wallet, and both go towards Cinnamon at the moment.

Rehdon

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 17:54 UTC (Sat) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] (7 responses)

> Why does vertical maximize appear only in Cinnamon (and hidden there in the options) when it is truly a killer feature (which already existed in fvwm in the early 90s, btw) for work on modern wide-screen monitors where a full maximize is neither pretty nor convenient?

Rather a footnote in window management, but now that you bring it up... not only has vertical maximize become more useful with widescreen monitors, but horizontal maximize has become less useful for the same reasons. This unfortunately has coincided with lower usage of "real" 3-button mice (replaced by scroll wheels, higher laptop usage, etc.). Most window managers use the middle button for vertical maximization, right for horizontal, so the more useful action is accessed in a less convenient way -- chording both buttons, or trying to press the scroll wheel without moving it, etc.

(Parenthetical note: some window managers allow mouse buttons to be remapped, but this is so obvious that I didn't mention it (except I did).)

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 12, 2013 18:24 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

"(Parenthetical note: some window managers allow mouse buttons to be remapped, but this is so obvious that I didn't mention it (except I did).)"

This page intentionally left blank. ;)

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 13, 2013 13:39 UTC (Sun) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (5 responses)

It is quite easy to emulate 3 buttons on a touchpad, but no distro make that easy: (tap -> Button1, Left button->Button2, Right button->Button3).

Desktop environment should try to appeal to users that do not like Windows/OS X, because the others will keep using Windows/OS X no matter what. Unfortunately they tend to aim at the opposite, due to the mistaken notion the later group is larger than the former.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 14, 2013 12:14 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (4 responses)

I'd rather use something which has its own ideas instead of just being anti or pro something else.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 19:23 UTC (Wed) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (3 responses)

It would be more satisfying if you, as a GNOME 3 representative, tried to answer the actual question (vertical maximise), rather than a tangentiality.

Of course I'm not at any liberty to ask you of anything. So, just a note.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 20:13 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (2 responses)

The reason for not answering is simple, I don't know. Answering "I don't know" is pointless noise.

Checked it a bit, Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts → Windows allows you to assign a keyboard shortcut to do vertical or horizontal maximization.

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 16, 2013 20:24 UTC (Wed) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (1 responses)

Thank you!

I know I used vertical maximization in Gnome 3, until it disappeared from my perception -- I believe that happened around 3.8. But the kind I used was triggered by double-clicking the titlebar (titlebar double-click action was configurable). I expected that it was removed altogether, rather than relegated to a keyboard-only action..

Cinnamon 2.0 released - mixed feelings

Posted Oct 19, 2013 17:35 UTC (Sat) by james (guest, #1325) [Link]

The Gnome tweak tool allows you to restore this action through a simple GUI. In Fedora (19), this is in the gnome-tweak-tool package.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 15, 2013 14:10 UTC (Tue) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (4 responses)

I agree with the notion that desktops and applications should be separate. In fact, this is where KDE is heading. KDE Frameworks 5 and Plasma Workspaces 2 and the KDE applications are developed and released separately.

It is unfortunate that the Gtk/Qt schism persists to this day, preventing applications from integrating well with KDE Plasma/Gnome respectively. But nobody seems to even have acknowledged that this is a problem, much less started doing something about it.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 15, 2013 22:35 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (3 responses)

Various desktop environments have been working together for loads of years on freedesktop.org. As a result we have agreed on various standards. See http://standards.freedesktop.org/.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 14:22 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm still getting a Gtk style file picker dialog on my KDE desktop. Gtk still isn't able to use Qt's themes. Third-party Gtk widgets can't be used in a Qt program, or vice versa. So I'm sorry, but the standardisation approach just doesn't work, one of the toolkits needs to go. High-profile projects like VLC and Wireshark chose to migrate from Gtk to Qt, so I hope for that trend to continue.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 14:36 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

In GTK+3.x a lot of work is going on to allow themes to make use of CSS. Thereby breaking the themes a lot, but eventually it will quiet down.

Anyway, people work on whatever they want to work on.

I agree with you

Posted Oct 17, 2013 16:08 UTC (Thu) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link]

> Gtk still isn't able to use Qt's themes

FWIW, there has been some parallel work to accomplish the same goal, e.g. QGtkStyle (GTK styling for Qt apps) and Oxygen-GTK (use of the default KDE style in GTK applications). However, it may just be my perception, but it does seem like this work seems to be mostly done by the KDE/Qt camp.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 16, 2013 6:33 UTC (Wed) by Neowin (guest, #93001) [Link] (3 responses)

People want Windows-like desktop; not GNOME hell.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 16, 2013 8:23 UTC (Wed) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

> People want Windows-like desktop

I don't. I'm not in "people" ?

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 16, 2013 12:15 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I don't want GNOME because it looks and acts too much like Windows (or MacOS X: too little flexibility for my tastes).

Clearly I have fallen out of your invidious and ludicrous comparison entirely, but then I've always known I was never 'people'.

Cinnamon 2.0 released

Posted Oct 17, 2013 20:44 UTC (Thu) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

Which Windows? 95, XP, 7, 8, 8.1?
I have seen few Winows fans, one inside Microsoft, some deciding for entire company.
None likes 8, the type of comments they make was nothing short of disgust:-)

I should admit it us nice nowadays to see Windows trolls, like seeing one faithfull mainframe fan.


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