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Fedora's working groups

By Jonathan Corbet
October 9, 2013
Last August we covered a proposal to change how Fedora is built that was being pushed by Matthew Miller. This proposal divided Fedora into "rings," with a tightly-controlled core component serving as the base for various outer layers aimed at specific use cases. Since then, work on this idea has progressed somewhat, and the Fedora project is now trying to put together a governance structure that can implement it. In the process it's revealing more of what the project's leaders have in mind and how this plan may raise some tensions with the wider community.

Back in September, Matthew posted a call for nominations for a set of "working groups" that would drive the future of Fedora. Each of these working groups would function as a subcommittee of the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) and handle everything that is specific to its particular topic; FESCo's job will become one of handling issues that affect more than one of these working groups:

FESCo will resolve issues which impact multiple working groups, and the Fedora Board will continue to set overall strategic direction, but the working groups will be largely autonomous within their own areas.

The current plan is to have five working groups, two of which are directly tied to the "rings" in the original proposal. There will be a "Base Design" group that will manage the core of the Fedora system; this core includes the kernel, low-level plumbing, and the toolchain needed to build it all. The "Environments & Software Stacks" group is charged with managing the next layer, which includes development environments, desktop environments, and more. These two layers provide the substrate that most real-world uses of Fedora will want to have.

From here, it appears that the Fedora distribution is going to fork into three "products" (workstation, server, and cloud), each of which will be run by its own working group. The plans for these groups are intentionally fuzzy until the groups themselves are formed:

The Board asks that the Working Groups determine their own target audience definition and product description as a first task; the names aren't set in stone.

Some participants on the Fedora development list were a little disappointed to see that there was not an embedded product on the list. Red Hat's Stephen Gallagher confirmed that an embedded product is not envisioned for now, though, he noted, there will be a place for ARM in the server and cloud variants. Given the current level of Fedora use in the embedded world (or the lack thereof) this position might make sense, but it would be a shame if Fedora were to show a lack of ambition in this area in the long term.

The biggest fuss, however, was certainly about the process by which the groups will be chosen and the degree of freedom they will have. This process was briefly described in the FESCo ticket system and discussed at the October 2 FESCo meeting. In short, FESCo will assign one of its own members to each of the working groups; that delegate will then select nine members from those who have nominated themselves for the position. Nominations are being gathered on this wiki page and will close on October 14, so anybody with an interest in participating should put their name in soon.

How much latitude will the working groups have to define their various products? During the meeting (IRC log), Miloslav Trmač complained about the proposed rule stating that Red Hat employees could not hold more than half of any working group's seats, saying "I'd rather be upfront with that this needs to work for Red Hat". Peter Jones translated that as "basically if whatever they come up with doesn't work for RH, it's a non-starter", and Matthew added "Right. that's a big elephant that underlies everything Fedora does without actually being in our mission docs." That was enough to inspire Jóhann B. Guðmundsson, who has a long history of dissatisfaction with Fedora project governance, to dismiss the entire exercise as "nothing but an utter and total shenanigan on RH behalf". This outburst drew responses from several Red Hat employees, all of whom said that Red Hat had no intention of dictating directions to Fedora. As Matthew put it:

This is absolutely a real community process. Red Hat members of the working groups can make their merit-based cases the same way as anyone else, and if they can't show that merit to the community, they don't get a special trump card. They will have to find another way to advance their cause.

The deliberations of these working groups will be public, so we will be able to see how it actually plays out. Chances are that things will generally go in directions that are agreeable to Red Hat for a simple reason: Red Hat is paying the bulk of the developers who actually get the work done. Nobody could realistically expect that a Fedora working group, no matter how independent, would have the power to direct the activities of Red Hat's staff. So, naturally, directions that are interesting to Red Hat are likely to get more developer time and, thus, to progress more quickly.

In any case, the next step is to name the members of these committees and to let them start the process of deciding what they want to do. The shape of the Fedora 21 release probably will not change much as a result of the new design, but it would be surprising if the releases after that didn't exhibit some new directions. Within a year or two, we could have a Fedora distribution with three distinct flavors, each of which is optimized for a different user community. It will be interesting to watch.


to post comments

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 10, 2013 21:39 UTC (Thu) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (5 responses)

Truly a dark day in Fedora's community history taking place there and let's not forget Stephens own words on top of FESCO's which I might be reading too much into as well I guess at least by Matthews standards...

"Red Hat *may* flex its muscles a bit if the community were to do
something extremely unlikely that would be in direct opposition to the
needs of Red Hat."

RH claims it wants the community to wonder into the unknown,explore and innovate but at the same time it wants to keep the community on leash so it does not wonder off on it's own path to far away from RH o_O

Well I dont know about you but it's pretty hard to explore the forest while being kept chained in the basement, so time will tell if those same corporate muscles which allegedly embrace the community, will be used to choke it instead.

Anyway as Jonathan correctly briefly points out here in the article and anyone that does not have an IQ of an rock already knows, is that time is the currency in any open source project and those that have the most of it ( be it hired staff or community members ) are the ones that get the most thing done which in turn will natural have the most impact on that project and it's directions.

So there really is no need for *any* corporate assuring it's dominance over that project like RH does for example by ensuring the *right* amount of their own employees are involved in leading positions or inventing high ranking Fedora community titles,then granting them to individuals outside the community and the access to go along with it, and then somehow just expect the community to embrace and bow down to those corporate title bearing knights which suddenly appeared from nowhere and are going to make wonders happen and unicorns fart rainbows from their ass while they are at it.

In reality they more often then not just wind up messing with peoples work and workflow and vanish when RHEL release is close to it's full moon.

What matters in these relations is that everybody corporate and community members alike sit at the same table,follow the same rules and procedures ( which gives neither party the upper hand ) and work together for their common goal where *everybody* benefits which is fair and just. Not falling into the trap of "community edition" and "enterprise edition" where the enterprise edition and often the bits that are in it are being developed behind closed doors or even worse [1].

From distribution politics to products as things stand now with the multi-product proposal ( be it 2,3 or more "official" products ) we are at impasse because we have yet to find a way to make QA scale with that proposal. ( an question which also was asked at Flock as in how are we going to QA this stuff )

Now I have proposed that we try to stabilize anaconda development earlier in the cycle ( which in turn should free up significant of QA members time which could be allocated to those products) however that means it will be on it's own development/release cycle in other words anaconda installation image would not be made from the same tree that it's composing from any more. ( Personally not seeing how that is supposed to have ever worked but hey that's just me... )

Tapping into the collectiveness if anyone has any ideas how this predicament can be solved without having to stir the Anaconda development cycle I'm all ears...

1, https://plus.google.com/106978520009932034644/posts/L8FJk...

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 12, 2013 19:13 UTC (Sat) by lsl (subscriber, #86508) [Link] (4 responses)

Did you really just start (re-)using pre-written text fragments for your rants or is it just me having some kind of déjà vu?

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 14, 2013 20:12 UTC (Mon) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (3 responses)

Rants or not the number speaks for themselves.

Now that the wg nominations are over the total number of nominees 64.

Of those Red Hat employees make up 50 individuals and the community only 14 which is rather disappoint since it either means the wg did not reach the community ( which quite frankly does not surprise me since they seem to be more or less only interested in individuals subscribed to devel-* as opposed to reaching into the sub community and announce and ask for participation ) et all or worse the community is not interested in either product proposal in whole or participate in setting the direction of Fedora in general ( or knows or thinks it cant ).

Even with majority of community members in any group unachievable and most likely wont pass the initial FESCO scrutiny anyway which tone on that fateful meeting was targeted at "engineers" rather then the wider community which included qa,documentation writers,administrators etc.

Dont forget that FESCO members are assigned to each wg and they will select the initial 9 members...

Red Hat Employees
Matthias Clasen ( Gnome )
Owen Taylor ( Gnome )
Christian Schaller ( Gnome )
Lukáš Tinkl ( KDE )
Nils Philippsen
Jens Petersen
Ryan Lerch
Petr Hracek

Community members
Elad Alfassa ( Gnome )
Adel Gadllah ( Gnome )
Kalev Lember ( Gnome )
Christoph Wickert ( Xfce/LXDE )

12 nomination total.

Fedora Server Working Group

Red Hat Employees
Stephen Gallagher
Phil Knirsch
Ondrej Vasik
Nils Philippsen
Tomáš Mráz
Kevin Fenzi
Stephen Smoogen
James Antill
Dan Walsh
Máirín Duffy
Tomáš Hozza
Alexander Bokovoy
Simo Sorce
Miloslav Trmač

Community members
Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
Jim Perrin
David Strauss
Truong Anh Tuan

18 nomination total.

Fedora Cloud Working Group

Red Hat Employees
Robyn Bergeron
Stephen Smoogen
Sam Kottler
James Antill
Andy Grover
Matthias Runge
Joe Brockmeier
Matthew Miller

Community members
Ed Cashin
Frankie Onuonga
Sandro Mathys
Haïkel Guémar

12 nomination total.

Base Design Working Group

Red Hat Employees
Dennis Gilmore
Phil Knirsch
Harald Hoyer
Lennart Poettering
Ondrej Vasik
Jaroslav Reznik
Nils Philippsen
Bill Nottingham
Aleš Kozumplík
Jiri Moskovcak
Kevin Fenzi
James Antill
Tim Waugh
Dan Walsh
Lukas Nykryn
Michal Sekletar
Josh Boyer
Tomáš Hozza
Vaclav Pavlin
Simo Sorce
Miloslav Trmač
Subhendu Ghosh

Community members
Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
Frankie Onuonga
Jon Disnard

25 nomination total.

Environments & Software Stacks Working Group

Red Hat Employees
Marcela Mašláňová
Radek Vokál
Jan Zelený
Bill Nottingham
Toshio Kuratomi
Sam Kottler
James Antill
Stanislav Ochotnicky
Honza Horak
Slavek Kabrda
Debi Rieden
John Dulaney
Subhendu Ghosh
Petr Kovar
Jens Petersen

Community members
Tadej Janež

16 nomination total.

Nominees that signed up for more then one working group

Bill Nottingham ( FBDWG/FESSWG )
Dan Walsh ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Frankie Onuonga ( FCWG/FBDWG )
James Antill ( FSWG/FCWG/FBDWG/FESSWG )
Jóhann B. Guðmundsson ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Kevin Fenzi ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Miloslav Trmač ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Nils Philippsen ( FWWG/FSWG/FBDWG )
Ondrej Vasik ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Phil Knirsch ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Sam Kottler ( FCWG/FESSWG )
Simo Sorce ( FSWG/FBDWG )
Stephen Smoogen ( FSWG/FCWG )
Subhendu Ghosh ( FBDWG/FESSWG )
Tomáš Hozza ( FSWG/FBDWG )

With most people nominating both for FSWG/FBDWG

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 15, 2013 1:39 UTC (Tue) by jdulaney (subscriber, #83672) [Link] (2 responses)

Actually, Jon Disnard works for Red Hat now, too.

I guess it doesn't matter that a) I've only been at Red Hat for a little over a month, b) that I don't get paid to work on Fedora *at all*, c) have put in many years as a member of the Fedora Project, and d) do it because I love it?

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 15, 2013 2:05 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (1 responses)

Jon working for Red Hat means one less community member ( which makes things worse not better ) and you are example of Red Hat doing it right as in hiring people that have dedicated their free time into the community and you are not alone Kevin is there and others...

Fedora's working groups

Posted Oct 16, 2013 15:19 UTC (Wed) by encukou (guest, #83287) [Link]

You imply that by working for Red Hat, you somehow stop being a community member. I wonder where that assumption comes from.
Many people actually joined RH *because* they wanted to do more for the community than they could in their free time.


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