Some of us knew this 30 years ago [LWN.net]

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:29 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921)
In reply to: Some of us knew this 30 years ago by ewan
Parent article: Android 4.3

> you're setting up a completely false dichotomy between convenient DRMed systems, and inconvenient 'pirate' ones.

That's exactly my point. DRM never increases usability, it *always* reduces it. Always. A very simple and obvious rule. It's ridiculous to say that some service is convenient because it's DRMed. Add this to the fact that DRM doesn't prevent piracy and the only sane resolution is - DRM is a junk that's not needed. The fact that it's still used leads one to conclude that it's used for completely unrelated purposes, and it's always bad for the end user.

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Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:12 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

>That's exactly my point. DRM never increases usability, it *always* reduces it. Always. A very simple and obvious rule
Here is your error - this statement is simply wrong.

DRM allows users to trade some freedoms (like freedom to resell or freedom to backup) in exchange for other benefits. If such an offer is bad (like, "pay $20 for DRM-ed album that you can't listen on your CD-player") then users simply don't accept it. If the offer is good ("listen to any song in our collection of hundreds of thousands of songs, any time on any supported device") then it's a different story.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:59 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (8 responses)

I don't think you understood my statement above. Imagine any service with DRM, and measure its usability level. Then imagine the same service but without DRM. All the same convenience as before, plus convenience to back up, device shift, time shift, etc. etc. Bingo, the second one has higher usability. That was my point. DRM *always* reduces usability.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:01 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (7 responses)

>Then imagine the same service but without DRM.
That's extremely easy: "No service at all".

Usability is also perfect - since there's nothing to use.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:19 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

Why no service at all? DRM free services exist. The general trend is for DRM to die out. Music, gaming and e-book publishing industries move away from DRM. My point was the logic that any publisher and distributor should evaluate. I.e. publishers and distributors who use DRM reduce usability for their users. They increase it if they decide to drop it. Improved usability reduces piracy (as others pointed out, the better the service is, less likely some pople would pirate the content). And it doesn't affect those who would pirate either way (DRM or not). So, why don't publishers stop using DRM then? Surely not because they care about good services, and not because they worry about piracy.

Combine it with the fact that DRM is an unethical preemptive policing prone for privacy and security risks and it's easy to see that DRM has no useful and legit applications at all. All its applications are anti-user and nefarious ones.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 18:14 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (5 responses)

Right, the reality is that the choice is between a service with DRM controlled by content distributors or a service without DRM which is fought tooth and nail by the content distributors and can't legally obtain content to sell. The video content distribution industry isn't so enlightened as to sell or rent DRM-free so we need to adjust for the reality we find ourselves in. In the long game maybe they will feel secure enough to reduce or remove the need for DRM but that day isn't today.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 20:21 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (4 responses)

You can't consider such situation bad while accepting the terms. Publishers need users not any less than users need publishers (probably even more). Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 20:51 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Really? If 1% of anti-DRM zealots will stop supporting publishers then DRM will go away? Newsflash from you: if DRM will increase earnings from "normal" users by mere 2% then this will more then compensate loss from anti-DRM zealots.

Publishes do need users - but they don't need you, personally. Any other user will wallet will do. And since there are many times more users than publishers... DRM stays, sorry.

And as long as DRM stays any platform which does not support DRM automatically becomes second-class citizen: smaller selection of stuff, often higher cost, etc. Individual publishers and/or creators can try to play anti-DRM card and try to attract some users this way, but if platform owner does that said platform quickly goes down in flames. Joe Average cares about ability to watch Netflix today more then s/he cares about availability of stuff tomorrow.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:13 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (2 responses)

No reason to explain that this issue depends on users. And if users have no clue - they won't make an educated choice. That wasn't my point. My point was about those who know, and still support DRM. They can start with themselves. I.e. the fact that many users aren't educated about this issue is not an excuse to support DRM.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:40 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

Pick your battles. When you protest against some particularly nasty problems with DRM implementation you can be heard by others (content providers included), but when you scream: "DRM? Over my dead body! the only thing reaction you can reasonably expect is "Noted. We'll see if we can organize said dead body".

Situation is similar to discussion about copyleft: push too much and the only thing will be write off of your platform/community/etc as hopeless. Instead of someone who can influence future direction of industry you are written off and can not do anything at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 28, 2013 6:22 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

Situation is different from copyleft, because saying "use copyleft everywhere" is a tough proposal for those who can't come up with working business based on that (let's say it's hard to sell a game which is 100% open source including artistic assets). Business models which work for some open source projects don't work for every possible product.

DRM however is different, since it has completely no logical reason to exist, literally in any product. Therefore it's completely reasonable to propose to drop DRM everywhere.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:12 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (5 responses)

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that point as the practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control, where control is often achieved through DRM schemes. As the control of the distribution channels is solidified the need for technical measures such as DRM is lessened.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:06 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (4 responses)

> practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control

Not, they can't control the channels. Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM. But they can control the progress of technologies. DRM slows down advancement of storage solutions (why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?) and many other aspects of technology. It's another reason to fight DRM and to boycott services which proliferate it.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:13 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Not, they can't control the channels.

Well, that's kind of raven667's point.

Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM.

Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?

That's easy: because they work. We still use 30 years old tech such as CDs which contain no DRM at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:22 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (2 responses)

> Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

Do you see any logic in your statement? It's like saying, that in order to prevent fires, a building has to put handcuffs on each visitor. If asked that it didn't reduce fire rates, you'll answer that they fight fires with other means too, including but not limited to using handcuffs. What was the point of handcuffs then? Same thing with DRM. "They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight. Wonderful.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:58 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

"They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight.

Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread. For illegal activities which only 1% of citizens perform there are an adequate remedy: police and jails. But it only works if 99% of citizens obey the rules. And DRM is great help there.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 28, 2013 6:29 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

> Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread.

It doesn't even do that. In vast majority of cases DRM is broken, and those digital materials are pirated ever since. You can argue that DRM reduces piracy on the period from when it's introduced to the point when a way to break it is found. But it's a bad justification, since it's a very negligible gain in comparison with crippling the experience for legitimate users. And in most cases DRM is broken pretty fast.