Some of us knew this 30 years ago [LWN.net]

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 25, 2013 23:29 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: Some of us knew this 30 years ago by shmerl
Parent article: Android 4.3

And DRM on top of Kindle (i.e. Kindle only content) *reduces* usability.

Yet somehow there millions of Kindle users and over 90% of them use it in unmodified form. Strange, isn't it. If it's really super-ultra-essential to strip DRM from Kindle only content, then why so few people actually do that?

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Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 2:02 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (29 responses)

Obviously it's essential for those who don't use Kindle and get some Kindle only e-books. An argument that Kindle device is a prerequisite for comfortable reading is bizarre. As I said, Kindle can perfectly work without any DRM providing comfort for those who use it, and not denying users of other systems an ability to use e-books without spending time of stripping the DRM garbage off them first. So far I see nothing that contradicts the idea that there is no reason to use DRM, except to annoy [part of the] paying customers and to slow down innovation.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 3:07 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (28 responses)

> Obviously it's essential for those who don't use Kindle and get some Kindle only e-books.

and who aren't willing to use the free kindle software that is available for most platforms (including a browser-based cloud version)

this is also only needed if the publisher of the book insisted on using DRM, and if the publisher is doing that, they are probably also putting DRM on their epub version of the book as well.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 3:21 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (27 responses)

Why should reading an e-book be limited to one application or cloud service? User should be able to read it with any decent reader. And not each potential system has a Kindle application (for example Plasma Active doesn't), and cloud can be inaccessible precisely in cases when one can spend time reading, such as in a subway. Anyway, DRM does nothing good for the user.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 10:37 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (26 responses)

Sometimes people lose sight of the forest for the trees, but you went far, far, far beyond that. You are losing sight of the forest, you are losing sight of the tree, instead you are concentrating on some small part of tree root and ignore everything else.

You may howl as much as you want but the fact remains: for each person who've managed to crack Kindle or Nook there are dozens of users who didn't do that and use Kindle and Nook as they were intended to use - DRM and everything. This means that it's more usable for them then TPB or other P2P sources. And DRM is not bad enough impediment to rebel.

As DRM becomes less and less invasive it becomes more and more acceptable and as distribution becomes simpler it becomes less important. In the end there are always a balance - but only as far as end user is concerned. On platform level situation is much simpler: platforms with support for DRM lives and platforms without such support die. It's as simple as that. For one simple reason: very few users will tolerate the situation where they are deprived of their valuable content because creators of platform are spurning DRM "for their own good".

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 11:29 UTC (Fri) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (22 responses)

I think you're equally guilty of losing sight of the forest - you're setting up a completely false dichotomy between convenient DRMed systems, and inconvenient 'pirate' ones. The third possibility is convenient DRM free systems, for example, Amazon's MP3 store.

DRM doesn't make a Kindle any more convenient to use, so if I'm going to buy a Kindle and buy Kindle books because it's convenient, then I'd still do that if there were no DRM, and while you're right that modern DRM is often fairly unintrusive, but when it does intrude, it only ever makes things worse.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 13:23 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

If the book you want to read if published by a company that won't make their work available without DRM, then yes, the DRM makes it more convienient for the user, they have the choice of getting the DRM version on the kindle (hardware and software), or go buy the paper copy.

just because there are books from other authors and publishers available doesn't make them replacements.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:04 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

The remark about books from other authors is amusing. To take an example of something approaching this, apparently people are so fed up of the Norwegian publishing cartel that they're happy to buy Norwegian literature in electronic form in English (and other) translations for substantially less money than they would pay to read the original versions in their own (and the readers' native) language. Who is making things hard for whom, exactly?

When some industry will only participate on their own terms and nothing short of those terms, you can't claim that those terms facilitate customer convenience, justifying it by noting that otherwise there would be nothing to buy at all. Especially when people can probably track down an "illegal" copy more easily than going through whatever excruciating purchasing experience the publishers have in mind.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:29 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (16 responses)

> you're setting up a completely false dichotomy between convenient DRMed systems, and inconvenient 'pirate' ones.

That's exactly my point. DRM never increases usability, it *always* reduces it. Always. A very simple and obvious rule. It's ridiculous to say that some service is convenient because it's DRMed. Add this to the fact that DRM doesn't prevent piracy and the only sane resolution is - DRM is a junk that's not needed. The fact that it's still used leads one to conclude that it's used for completely unrelated purposes, and it's always bad for the end user.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:12 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

>That's exactly my point. DRM never increases usability, it *always* reduces it. Always. A very simple and obvious rule
Here is your error - this statement is simply wrong.

DRM allows users to trade some freedoms (like freedom to resell or freedom to backup) in exchange for other benefits. If such an offer is bad (like, "pay $20 for DRM-ed album that you can't listen on your CD-player") then users simply don't accept it. If the offer is good ("listen to any song in our collection of hundreds of thousands of songs, any time on any supported device") then it's a different story.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:59 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (8 responses)

I don't think you understood my statement above. Imagine any service with DRM, and measure its usability level. Then imagine the same service but without DRM. All the same convenience as before, plus convenience to back up, device shift, time shift, etc. etc. Bingo, the second one has higher usability. That was my point. DRM *always* reduces usability.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:01 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (7 responses)

>Then imagine the same service but without DRM.
That's extremely easy: "No service at all".

Usability is also perfect - since there's nothing to use.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:19 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

Why no service at all? DRM free services exist. The general trend is for DRM to die out. Music, gaming and e-book publishing industries move away from DRM. My point was the logic that any publisher and distributor should evaluate. I.e. publishers and distributors who use DRM reduce usability for their users. They increase it if they decide to drop it. Improved usability reduces piracy (as others pointed out, the better the service is, less likely some pople would pirate the content). And it doesn't affect those who would pirate either way (DRM or not). So, why don't publishers stop using DRM then? Surely not because they care about good services, and not because they worry about piracy.

Combine it with the fact that DRM is an unethical preemptive policing prone for privacy and security risks and it's easy to see that DRM has no useful and legit applications at all. All its applications are anti-user and nefarious ones.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 18:14 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (5 responses)

Right, the reality is that the choice is between a service with DRM controlled by content distributors or a service without DRM which is fought tooth and nail by the content distributors and can't legally obtain content to sell. The video content distribution industry isn't so enlightened as to sell or rent DRM-free so we need to adjust for the reality we find ourselves in. In the long game maybe they will feel secure enough to reduce or remove the need for DRM but that day isn't today.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 20:21 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (4 responses)

You can't consider such situation bad while accepting the terms. Publishers need users not any less than users need publishers (probably even more). Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 20:51 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Really? If 1% of anti-DRM zealots will stop supporting publishers then DRM will go away? Newsflash from you: if DRM will increase earnings from "normal" users by mere 2% then this will more then compensate loss from anti-DRM zealots.

Publishes do need users - but they don't need you, personally. Any other user will wallet will do. And since there are many times more users than publishers... DRM stays, sorry.

And as long as DRM stays any platform which does not support DRM automatically becomes second-class citizen: smaller selection of stuff, often higher cost, etc. Individual publishers and/or creators can try to play anti-DRM card and try to attract some users this way, but if platform owner does that said platform quickly goes down in flames. Joe Average cares about ability to watch Netflix today more then s/he cares about availability of stuff tomorrow.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:13 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (2 responses)

No reason to explain that this issue depends on users. And if users have no clue - they won't make an educated choice. That wasn't my point. My point was about those who know, and still support DRM. They can start with themselves. I.e. the fact that many users aren't educated about this issue is not an excuse to support DRM.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:40 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

Pick your battles. When you protest against some particularly nasty problems with DRM implementation you can be heard by others (content providers included), but when you scream: "DRM? Over my dead body! the only thing reaction you can reasonably expect is "Noted. We'll see if we can organize said dead body".

Situation is similar to discussion about copyleft: push too much and the only thing will be write off of your platform/community/etc as hopeless. Instead of someone who can influence future direction of industry you are written off and can not do anything at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 28, 2013 6:22 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

Situation is different from copyleft, because saying "use copyleft everywhere" is a tough proposal for those who can't come up with working business based on that (let's say it's hard to sell a game which is 100% open source including artistic assets). Business models which work for some open source projects don't work for every possible product.

DRM however is different, since it has completely no logical reason to exist, literally in any product. Therefore it's completely reasonable to propose to drop DRM everywhere.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:12 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (5 responses)

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that point as the practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control, where control is often achieved through DRM schemes. As the control of the distribution channels is solidified the need for technical measures such as DRM is lessened.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 17:06 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (4 responses)

> practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control

Not, they can't control the channels. Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM. But they can control the progress of technologies. DRM slows down advancement of storage solutions (why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?) and many other aspects of technology. It's another reason to fight DRM and to boycott services which proliferate it.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:13 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

Not, they can't control the channels.

Well, that's kind of raven667's point.

Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM.

Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?

That's easy: because they work. We still use 30 years old tech such as CDs which contain no DRM at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:22 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (2 responses)

> Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

Do you see any logic in your statement? It's like saying, that in order to prevent fires, a building has to put handcuffs on each visitor. If asked that it didn't reduce fire rates, you'll answer that they fight fires with other means too, including but not limited to using handcuffs. What was the point of handcuffs then? Same thing with DRM. "They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight. Wonderful.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:58 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

"They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight.

Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread. For illegal activities which only 1% of citizens perform there are an adequate remedy: police and jails. But it only works if 99% of citizens obey the rules. And DRM is great help there.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 28, 2013 6:29 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

> Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread.

It doesn't even do that. In vast majority of cases DRM is broken, and those digital materials are pirated ever since. You can argue that DRM reduces piracy on the period from when it's introduced to the point when a way to break it is found. But it's a bad justification, since it's a very negligible gain in comparison with crippling the experience for legitimate users. And in most cases DRM is broken pretty fast.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:07 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

DRM doesn't make a Kindle any more convenient to use

It does. Large selection of books is available on Kindle because it supports DRM. And this is one the most important characteristics of usability for bookreaders. Kindle is better not because it's interface is more convenient then, e.g. Cool Reader. It's better for one simple reason: it's much easier to buy book if you want to read it on Kindle. It also supports synchronization between devices and other similar goodies. And all such properties are directly related to the DRM. Yes, DRM is not an advantage for user, it's a price - but for that price user gets other advantages.

If I'm going to buy a Kindle and buy Kindle books because it's convenient, then I'd still do that if there were no DRM

But this is exactly the choice you don't have and will not have for the foreseeable future! Compare Lulu's catalog to Kindle's or Nook catalogs! It's not even a contest...

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 21:17 UTC (Fri) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

I already explained above what I was talking about - about equal comparison (which should be evaluated by the publisher). Your comparison is not equal, i.e. you aren't talking about DRM vs no DRM, you are talking about existing services which use DRM on publishers' terms. I'm challenging the sanity of these terms, you ignore them and say that service has good usability as is. That wasn't the point.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 26, 2013 23:13 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

in all of this, it's worth pointing out that there are some publishers who publish on the Kindle store who do NOT require DRM, and their books are on kindle devices without DRM

DRM is a publishers option, If publishers didn't want to use DRM, nothing on the Kindle would change, except for the content.

Baen is one publisher who doesn't use DRM (and hasn't, ever since they started publishing e-books over a decade ago)

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 29, 2013 9:48 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

> Sometimes people lose sight of the forest for the trees, but you went far, far, far beyond that. You are losing sight of the forest, you are losing sight of the tree, instead you are concentrating on some small part of tree root and ignore everything else.

So, why do you keep feeding the troll?

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Posted Jul 31, 2013 1:33 UTC (Wed) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

No better arguments to present?

Prove your assumption

Posted Aug 3, 2013 16:29 UTC (Sat) by jjs (guest, #10315) [Link]

That those who use download DRM'd files would NOT download non-DRM'd files. The choice isn't DRM or piracy, it's DRM, piracy, or no DRM legitimate.

DRM is known to drive away some people. Pirates will pirate with or without DRM (all DRM is essentially useless, as you have to give the person the encrypted content, the key, and the algorithm, so they can decrypt to read/listen/view). The two questions are: will those who legitimately download DRM'd files STOP downloading if it becomes non-DRM? will those who don't download DRM'd files (either pirate it, or just don't download) download non-DRM'd files?

So far the results from the music industry are that removing DRM actually increases the customer base for the companies that legitimately distribute music.