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On kernel mailing list behavior

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 25, 2013 3:54 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313)
In reply to: On kernel mailing list behavior by nocturem
Parent article: On kernel mailing list behavior

you started off by saying that you didn't read the kernel list, so you don't really know what you're talking about.

Then you imply that language like calling her "a useless cunt" is part f what's going on, and may even be common.

I have never seen language like that on the kernel list in the 16+ years that I've been reading it, and it's definantly not the time tof thing that's being discussed.

Please go and read the examples of the "bad behavior" and then look at the context before you make any comments


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On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 25, 2013 5:32 UTC (Thu) by nocturem (guest, #92005) [Link] (2 responses)

So just to be clear; are you are stating that I am not entitled to comment on the matter or hold an an opinion based on not having a broader experience with the Kernel mailing list? Please let me know I wouldn't want to have misinterpreted you on this.
I Have read the thread and I found several positions expressed ranging from the belligerent to the conciliatory and I would suspect that the resulting talk at the next Kernel Summit will be very interesting.
I notice that you surmised and interpreted my second point regarding communication in a professional setting as being an allagation that such language was being deployed directly against Sarah and others.
This was not my intended statement I was using a a deliberately extreme statement as a clear and unambiguous example of language that would be considered unacceptable in a professional environment. There are other examples of bad behavior as you have suggested and most of them would have the author facing a meeting with Human Resources in their workplace.
At no point was I directly or indirectly attempting to imply that this language was common within the Kernel development community who's discussion of their own tone has been (perhaps with some irony) cleaner than external discussions on other sites. I apologize if I had left this somewhat ambiguous my point if you did not read the tldr has been mentioned in the thread itself and that is that the tone of discussion, and this is not the overall tone or the regular day to day language used on the mailing list that I am referring to but the few odd examples that make it out into wider public circulation that should be stopped.

Linus admitted that his blast at Mauro was not his proudest moment and more tragically its one of the mmoments the Internet collectivly remembers the best.

If you are uncertain what I am getting at have a look at this: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/lin...

It doesn't have the full story and it doesn't have to point is that from a PR perspective the damage is done. I don't make a habit of reading the mailing list and my perspective is that of an outsider.
It should be more concerning for that very reason.

There are potentially thousands of programming students and Linux hobbiests (not sure if that is the correct plural :S) who may have seen this as their only insight into the Kernel development community and further there are untold hardware manufacturers whose executive team need only to read one article like this to discourage any interest in associaing with Linux they will just stick to Microsoft cause its safe.

There is grander damage being done to the image of Linux as a whole when this gets dragged out onto the wider internet. And if you read the comments being generated on other sites regarding Linus they are not flattering or accurate but they dont have to be to tarnish the image of Linix as a whole or to scare off potential talent.

So to reiterate I am all for a code of conduct preferably with a nice fluff article in other news pages alluding to it so that instead of the perception of Linux Kernel development being an amateur project filled with flaming and hostile to newcomers it might leave this event with the image of having "cleaned up its act" regardless of its accuracy.

I was open and honest prefacing my opinion as not being intimately informed and would not claim to have years of experience with the community however I have read related articles on several other sites and I am not alone in my position which I feel validates it to a degree.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:26 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Linux hobbiests (not sure if that is the correct plural :S)

"hobbyists" (though most-hobby-like wouldn't be the worst addition to the dictionary).

I think you've done a much better job than I could have done at getting across my thoughts on the issue (at least the ramifications; the solution is less clear since a code of conduct is useless if it is either not enforced or an LKML-thickskins list pops up as a replacement).

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 27, 2013 21:59 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

So just to be clear; are you are stating that I am not entitled to comment on the matter or hold an an opinion based on not having a broader experience with the Kernel mailing list?
You are not qualified to comment because you're clearly not paying enough attention to discern which behaviours Sarah was trying to get changed, and which ones *off-list* she pointed at as examples of what she was going through as a direct result of her attempt to get those behaviours changed.

The two are not the same.


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