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On kernel mailing list behavior

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 24, 2013 10:17 UTC (Wed) by nocturem (guest, #92005)
Parent article: On kernel mailing list behavior

Preamble:
I should probably get this out of the way here.
I am not a regular reader of the Kernel Mailing List and I don’t develop for the Linux Kernel in a professional or amateur role and I couldn’t imagine wanting to it looks more like a religious self flagellating kind of thing, spending hours coding a patch submitting it and getting ragged on because someone else doesn’t like it. However I have an interest in Linux as an admin and I take an enthusiast view towards watching its development. But seeing this kind of public behaviour makes me ashamed of the code in my PC in the same way I would feel bad knowing that my clothes were made by children in a sweatshop.
I personally have to say the most fascinating part of this entire fight has not been Sarah or Linus, it would be the bizarre arguments expressed supporting or rebutting the claim of whether there should be a code of conduct within the Kernel Mailing List.
The first observation I would make is that these interactions would probably not occur in real life ie somewhere away from the safety of a keyboard.
I sincerely doubt Linus would start disparaging the ancestry of a guy twice his size in a pub that spilt his pint. If he did; well Linux may not have a benevolent dictator maintaining the Kernel by the end of the interaction :P

As a follow up point; I can also say with some confidence that this behaviour would not occur in a professional environment in *most* businesses, not without significant consequences. Can anyone remember a time when they were allowed to call their co-workers a useless cunt? No and neither can I and it doesn’t matter how badly they have messed up. Workplaces have liability if their senior staff abuse their junior staff or vice versa (at least in any way that can be proven) and there are many, many lawsuits that have been filed for those reasons and Human Resources in any company you can think of will have policies regarding conduct between employees.
Oh I am sure there are exceptions and being the internet someone will no doubt cite them so let me head off the few I can think of:
Perhaps in the armed forces where lives are at stake you might be able to carelessly toss around the abuse but in context you are employed to kill people there so perhaps that might be an exception to a generalize rule of civility.
Yes in an impoverished 3rd world nation where much of the population is starving I am sure your manager can say whatever he likes about the quality of the shoes you are manufacturing and possibly even beat you if they are not up to Nike standard but again not a very good apples to apples comparison to the world of free and open source software development.

Secondly to all those who have made the most tragically weak apology for Linus’s behaviour that it preserves the delicate quality of Kernel code or even weaker that it reduces redundant traffic in the mailing list that ladies and gentlemen is a horrific fallacy with no supporting evidence.
There is no historical proof that abusive and ultimately childish behaviour and an inability to control your emotional state when talking to volunteers on a project improves the quality of the results. None, no I don’t care about that one time you observed it helped in one case that is anecdotal not empirical and not submissible as evidence.
I am of the opinion that if there is an issue of low quality patches being pushed through still after several years of Linus and others casting aspersions upon others intellect, breeding and bedroom preferences threatening them with beatings that they could never hope to carry out then I think the evidence would be closer to suggesting these practices haven’t worked as a code quality improver at all.
I can see no reason that you could not be direct in telling someone that their code doesn’t meet a standard that you are willing to accept but telling them that it is shit or stupid or that they themselves are morons not only insults them but has insulted their work too. Work that they may have put time into and further you should not make assumptions about the reasons as to why they have produced code not up so standard but you can ask if they are willing to re-write the code to a level you would accept.

Thirdly Linux is a free project the people submitting patches do not get paid for their work and hence it is the proverbial gift horse, you shouldn’t look it in the mouth and even if you don’t think it is a stallion you would ride at best you might turn the gift away and suggest that you would rather walk insulting the man or woman who has made this offer only increases the chance that it will not be offered in the future. Yes some companies are paying staff to develop for Linux but not a lot and most of them only have devoted small amounts of their resources to this effort since the gain in market share is tiny.
A little reality check; there is a very good reason that many hardware vendors don’t play with Linux, it has a tiny market share and can’t justify subjecting their staff to the poor attitude within the Kernel development community. There is no business case in saying: “because it is a better developed and maintained kernel than the abomination that Redmond has vomited into the world” The market has never cared about quality of code and businesses largely don’t either. Linux needs a much larger market share to swing its weight around and largely thanks to Android it is beginning to gain that. But it is still a drop in the ocean compared to Microsoft and hardware vendors still treat it accordingly.
It may help if the Kernel community was extending the olive branch towards hardware vendors and asking nicely for them to produce drivers or at least make available the documentation required for the community to take an informed stab at it ie ATI but if the attitude of the top Kernel developers is still aggressive, confrontational and generally insulting then I can’t exactly hold it against hardware vendors that they don’t feel compelled to try and get their drivers into the Kernel.

For the TLDR summary:
Linux is shooting itself in the foot with this childish attitude, its an operating system not a tree house and the only people who are hurt by a lack of vendor support and interest is the users. I am all for a code of conduct that requires Kernel maintainers to try playing nice with the patch developers.


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On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 25, 2013 3:54 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

you started off by saying that you didn't read the kernel list, so you don't really know what you're talking about.

Then you imply that language like calling her "a useless cunt" is part f what's going on, and may even be common.

I have never seen language like that on the kernel list in the 16+ years that I've been reading it, and it's definantly not the time tof thing that's being discussed.

Please go and read the examples of the "bad behavior" and then look at the context before you make any comments

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 25, 2013 5:32 UTC (Thu) by nocturem (guest, #92005) [Link] (2 responses)

So just to be clear; are you are stating that I am not entitled to comment on the matter or hold an an opinion based on not having a broader experience with the Kernel mailing list? Please let me know I wouldn't want to have misinterpreted you on this.
I Have read the thread and I found several positions expressed ranging from the belligerent to the conciliatory and I would suspect that the resulting talk at the next Kernel Summit will be very interesting.
I notice that you surmised and interpreted my second point regarding communication in a professional setting as being an allagation that such language was being deployed directly against Sarah and others.
This was not my intended statement I was using a a deliberately extreme statement as a clear and unambiguous example of language that would be considered unacceptable in a professional environment. There are other examples of bad behavior as you have suggested and most of them would have the author facing a meeting with Human Resources in their workplace.
At no point was I directly or indirectly attempting to imply that this language was common within the Kernel development community who's discussion of their own tone has been (perhaps with some irony) cleaner than external discussions on other sites. I apologize if I had left this somewhat ambiguous my point if you did not read the tldr has been mentioned in the thread itself and that is that the tone of discussion, and this is not the overall tone or the regular day to day language used on the mailing list that I am referring to but the few odd examples that make it out into wider public circulation that should be stopped.

Linus admitted that his blast at Mauro was not his proudest moment and more tragically its one of the mmoments the Internet collectivly remembers the best.

If you are uncertain what I am getting at have a look at this: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/lin...

It doesn't have the full story and it doesn't have to point is that from a PR perspective the damage is done. I don't make a habit of reading the mailing list and my perspective is that of an outsider.
It should be more concerning for that very reason.

There are potentially thousands of programming students and Linux hobbiests (not sure if that is the correct plural :S) who may have seen this as their only insight into the Kernel development community and further there are untold hardware manufacturers whose executive team need only to read one article like this to discourage any interest in associaing with Linux they will just stick to Microsoft cause its safe.

There is grander damage being done to the image of Linux as a whole when this gets dragged out onto the wider internet. And if you read the comments being generated on other sites regarding Linus they are not flattering or accurate but they dont have to be to tarnish the image of Linix as a whole or to scare off potential talent.

So to reiterate I am all for a code of conduct preferably with a nice fluff article in other news pages alluding to it so that instead of the perception of Linux Kernel development being an amateur project filled with flaming and hostile to newcomers it might leave this event with the image of having "cleaned up its act" regardless of its accuracy.

I was open and honest prefacing my opinion as not being intimately informed and would not claim to have years of experience with the community however I have read related articles on several other sites and I am not alone in my position which I feel validates it to a degree.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 26, 2013 22:26 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Linux hobbiests (not sure if that is the correct plural :S)

"hobbyists" (though most-hobby-like wouldn't be the worst addition to the dictionary).

I think you've done a much better job than I could have done at getting across my thoughts on the issue (at least the ramifications; the solution is less clear since a code of conduct is useless if it is either not enforced or an LKML-thickskins list pops up as a replacement).

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 27, 2013 21:59 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

So just to be clear; are you are stating that I am not entitled to comment on the matter or hold an an opinion based on not having a broader experience with the Kernel mailing list?
You are not qualified to comment because you're clearly not paying enough attention to discern which behaviours Sarah was trying to get changed, and which ones *off-list* she pointed at as examples of what she was going through as a direct result of her attempt to get those behaviours changed.

The two are not the same.


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