On kernel mailing list behavior [LWN.net]

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 22, 2013 18:36 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198)
In reply to: On kernel mailing list behavior by Baylink
Parent article: On kernel mailing list behavior

> *the sort of abuse she implies simply isn't happening*. Or at least, no one's demonstrated it to *me*.

We can certainly have an honest difference of opinion on that subject, I don't follow LKML so take my opinion for what it's worth, I'm just going by what I've read, but she did provide some examples of what she thought was unnecessary behavior, calling other kernel developers incompetent and stupid, telling them to SHUT THE F**K UP, etc. The tenor used between close friends may not be appropriate when used publicly with what are effectively subordinates, co-workers and strangers. The community on LKML are not just people shooting the breeze, they are largely paid professionals whose livelihood depends on their successful participation, which changes the standard a little bit. Since she did make a statement about this behavior I would extend her the respect of taking her statement at face value unless it is shown to be false.

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On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 22, 2013 19:22 UTC (Mon) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link] (2 responses)

Nope; extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

"Most of the people on LKML are abusive assholes", which is the substance of her complaint as I -- and a lot of other people, apparently -- are interpreting it, is an extraordinary claim.

In other news: Linus and the, oh, top 10 or 12 guys on that list *are*, plus or minus 10%, the close friends between whom you believe such a tone might be justified.

There is, as you suggest, room for difference of opinion on whether the behaviour perceived on LMKL a) is common, b) actually is abusive, and c) is thereby *inherently* inclined to scare off people with useful contributions to make at that level (which is *really* far up in the stratosphere; think about the literally billions of devices the Linux kernel presently runs).

The opinion seems to be (from this thread, anyway) close enough to 50/50 that I'd have to sit down and actually tally it. But it also seems to me that the people alleging it's not abuse are backing up their position with more data and less emotion.

I *am* pleased to hear that, with one or two small exceptions, no one seems to be reacting to Sarah a) on the grounds of her sex, or b) on the grounds of her technical competence -- only, like my response, on the grounds of her management competence, which is *clearly* (to me, anyway) in-scope for this discussion.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 22, 2013 20:27 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> "Most of the people on LKML are abusive assholes", which is the substance of her complaint as I -- and a lot of other people, apparently -- are interpreting it, is an extraordinary claim.

That would be an extraordinary claim but I don't think that is not how I interpreted it and so I don't think that is the claim which was made. I understood the claim to be that Linus will sometimes, not often, go over a line with publicly dressing down contributions that he doesn't like. It is not clear to me what the relationship between Linus and the people being publicly berated is but it can set a tone on the list where that kind of behavior is considered acceptable. There are many maintainers on LKML and elsewhere in the professional sphere who are able to manage people, provide constructive feedback and maintain high quality standards without resorting to name calling and rude behavior.

I dunno, I think that the act of just talking about it probably will make the various actors think a little bit more about what they say and what the audience is when they say it which might move the conversation a few notches over in civility which would be mission accomplished from Sarah's perspective.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 22, 2013 20:32 UTC (Mon) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

Definitely, the Hawthorne Effect will likely kick in here, as much as people will say that it won't.

> I understood the claim to be that Linus will sometimes, not often, go over a line with publicly dressing down contributions that he doesn't like.

You understood her complaint to be specific to Linus? Cause I didn't. It sounded to *me* like she was asserting that the LKML in general was a "hostile work environment".