On kernel mailing list behavior [LWN.net]

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:05 UTC (Wed) by mylogic (guest, #75038)
Parent article: On kernel mailing list behavior

I don't really understand the argument here.

First of all, "violent and threatening"? Really? Being told to "SHUT UP" by the world's biggest nerd over the Internet is *hardly* a violent and threatening situation. Do they really feel threatened, or did someone's feelings get hurt? Secondly, one doesn't like how the maintainer of a project maintains, they should maintain their own project. Thirdly, from the examples provided, it seems like they needed to be yapped at.

Sometimes certain systems, that are complex and perform a crucial function, *require* hard-nosed leaders. I'm sure military officers don't apologize for hurting feelings...

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On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:20 UTC (Wed) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link] (16 responses)

The LKML is not a military boot camp. Participants don't abdicate their civil rights when they join in.

There's a difference between telling people, in strong words if necessary(!), that their code requires improvement before it can be merged -- and writing a put-down that discourages them from ever trying again. IMHO, long-term the kernel cannot afford the latter.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:31 UTC (Wed) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (3 responses)

> Participants don't abdicate their civil rights when they join in.

private organizations in the US can absolutely discriminate in ways you might find reprehensible. see: the boy scouts. see: any country club that prohibits women members. all legal, as long as the group is private and membership voluntary

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 8:22 UTC (Thu) by niner (guest, #26151) [Link] (2 responses)

Linux kernel development has not, is not and very probably will never be US only. So it's irrelevant to this discussion what is allowed in the US and what is not.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 18:26 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (1 responses)

but then the whole context of civil rights is also irrelevant - they are also the product of national legal codes

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 15:28 UTC (Fri) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

Most countries have libel laws. Not quite as many have laws about offensive or insulting public speech.

In any case, civil laws are supposed to codify what should be generally-accepted polite and/or reasonable behavior. Thus reasonable and polite conduct cannot require the existence, much less content, of any laws; that would be as circular as requiring a running Linux kernel to boot Linux from.

Nevertheless, having a code (legal code, code of conduct) as a reminder for, and if required as a basis for the punishment of, misbehaving people, is a good idea.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 17, 2013 23:10 UTC (Wed) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (11 responses)

"Participants don't abdicate their civil rights when they join in."

Please do tell which 'civil right' afford you the 'right not to be offended'

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 10:38 UTC (Thu) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link] (3 responses)

>> "Participants don't abdicate their civil rights when they join in."

> Please do tell which 'civil right' afford you the 'right not to be offended'

He said that participants do not abdicate their civil rights [in general] when they join the Linux kernel development.

And then you twist the message by asking not to go to specifics on which civil rights. ?!?!?! From point to pointless.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 19:01 UTC (Thu) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (2 responses)

"And then you twist the message by asking not to go to specifics on which civil rights."

Note: I auto-corrected s/not// in the above otherwise that would not have made any sense.

Certainly... unless that point was pure irrelevant drivel, the author intended it to be relevant to the discussion at hand... hence the question: what 'civil right' does one has to 'abdicate' to be on LKML and/or join the Kernel dev ?
And in particular, since when the 'right not to be offended' is a 'civil _right_' ?

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 14:43 UTC (Fri) by cloose (guest, #5066) [Link] (1 responses)

At least in germany it is:

http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html

Insult

The offense is punishable with imprisonment up to one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of an assault, punishable by up to two years or a fine.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 17:16 UTC (Fri) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link]

yep that sound like a winner...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-05-23/news/19941430...

Can wait for that level of absurdity to be enforced on LKML....

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 17:59 UTC (Thu) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203) [Link] (6 responses)

> Please do tell which 'civil right' afford you the 'right not to be offended'

This gets right to the heart of it. This argument is the tip of the spear, let the busybody do-gooders ever get a foot in the door and watch how fast things bog down in endless committees (complete with their own mailing lists and wikis) conferences, forums and plans to 'make the Linux and Free Software world a better, more welcoming and diverse[1] place.' Until all actual work stops.

[1] Diverse in the PC sense of course. Where everyone of every race, color, gender identity and (approved) religion comes together in perfect harmony to utterly stamp out any dissenting opinion. Because the one diversity that is forbidden is diversity of thought.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 21:57 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

I've worked in lots of workplaces in which insulting people was beyond the pale. Actually that would be all of them.

In not one was this implemented via 'endless committees', nor was it true that 'everyone of every race, color, gender identity and (approved) religion [came] together in perfect harmony to utterly stamp out any dissenting opinion. Because the one diversity that is forbidden is diversity of thought'.

I find it astonishing that you believe that being asked to not be horrible to people is equivalent to some sort of police state!

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 0:00 UTC (Fri) by Tobu (subscriber, #24111) [Link] (1 responses)

Being offended is entirely up to the person being offended, and doesn't have to be motivated by actual insults. It shouldn't be surprising that being offended and making a spectacle of it has become way more popular than insulting people; it's just as nasty to interpersonal relationships, and way less risky.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 0:17 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

It shouldn't be surprising that being offended and making a spectacle of it has become way more popular than insulting people

[Citation Needed]

I've certainly seen a lot more nasty insults from LKML- the arena under discussion- than claims of being offended.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 2:51 UTC (Fri) by ajf (guest, #10844) [Link]

I find it astonishing that you believe that being asked to not be horrible to people is equivalent to some sort of police state!

Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 18, 2013 23:50 UTC (Thu) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (1 responses)

100% Correct, and this is why I am so dismissive of this stupid woman, iy is like the emmigrants from the Marxist Kommonwealth of Kalifornia, they go elsewhere an defecate again.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 0:25 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I will say this once only. Desist immediately. You are the one without anything to add to the conversation, and this kind of comment is not welcome here.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:24 UTC (Wed) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link]

well in fairness the military has its own code of conduct and legal code that is distinct from that of civilian society...but it does have a code of conduct that is written down.

that might be a sane first step, write down a code of conduct for the lkml. writing down a code of conduct does not necessarily imply politeness, it simply gives everyone a point of reference and a guage of expectations.

On kernel mailing list behavior

Posted Jul 19, 2013 10:06 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Do they really feel threatened, or did someone's feelings get hurt?

I love this recent quote from Reg Braithwaite:

Hey! If you need to"Tell it like it is without worrying about people's feelings," how come you try so hard to hurt their feelings?

It summarizes the attitude towards "feelings" in many toxic communities.