Thick skins [LWN.net]

Thick skins

Posted Jul 17, 2013 17:17 UTC (Wed) by geofft (subscriber, #59789)
Parent article: On kernel mailing list behavior

> Perhaps I have a thick skull and/or skin, but it doesn't really bother me. Or perhaps I'm just too much of an old kernel fart these days, so I grew accustomed to it.

I don't participate in LKML, but I've noticed from other development communities that I have a thick skin. I hate having to have a thick skin (partly because I get defensive and end up continuing the aggressive tenor of conversations, partly because it's not enjoyable even if it's sufferable), and I also know folks who would be great contributors who simply don't.

I think those of us with thick skins should stop excusing abusive behavior simply because we can take it, and that we should definitely stop implying to new folks that a thick skin is effectively required to join the community.

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Thick skins

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:05 UTC (Wed) by BradReed (subscriber, #5917) [Link] (1 responses)

If you get defensive, then I would say you have a thin skin and not a thick skin.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 17, 2013 18:09 UTC (Wed) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link]

That might be true. I'm certainly willing to argue my point, loudly (which is a behavior that I've seen LKML encourage in the past -- "we want to make sure you really believe that the thing you're proposing is correct, so we'll force you to argue it"). In any case, I'm reasonably unlikely to be personally hurt or offended, and there should be somewhere in this skin analogy for the people who get hurt and give up.

Then again, I _have_ given up on LKML, so.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 17, 2013 19:03 UTC (Wed) by aliguori (guest, #30636) [Link] (3 responses)

A thick skin is needed in just about every community. If you spend time working hard on something and someone tells you that you are completely wrong in a blunt fashion, it hurts.

But there is a difference between say, "This approach is completely wrong" and saying "YOU ARE F*CKING STUPID".

The later is being abusive. That's not a question of thick skin, it's a question of willingness to tolerate being abused.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 17, 2013 19:36 UTC (Wed) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, there's certainly a difference there.

I've been told, and told people, "This approach is completely wrong" couched inside "I value and appreciate the time you spent on it, and don't think that you are dumb." I've been in productive communities where you don't need a thick skin, because people value each other and their happiness in that community, and out of that, productivity and good technical decisions naturally happen.

When I'm lucky, instead of directly being told "This approach is completely wrong" (or telling people that, conversely), I'm simply asked enough questions to realize that for myself, and nobody is hurt. This approach requires patience and trust, and a general feeling that others in the project value you as well as the project. So it's understandable that in volunteer communities, people don't tend to go for that approach. But it's worth the long-term investment, where possible, and we should acknowledge that we're hurting people when we don't.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 18, 2013 3:05 UTC (Thu) by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051) [Link]

But they killed Socrates, too! :)

Thick skins

Posted Jul 18, 2013 16:37 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

Seconded; you can tell someone in no uncertain terms that they've done something wrong and should make sure it never happens again, and even make it clear that they should have known better, without going on a tirade against them personally. *That's* what it means to keep things professional.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 18, 2013 2:13 UTC (Thu) by axboe (subscriber, #904) [Link] (5 responses)

> I think those of us with thick skins should stop excusing abusive behavior simply because we can take it, and that we should definitely stop implying to new folks that a thick skin is effectively required to join the community.

I am not "excusing abusive behavior" because _I/_ can take it. I don't find Linus' behavior abusive at all, that was my point. I speculate that it is _perhaps_ because I have thick skin, or perhaps it's because I'm used to it. Or maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know.

Fact is, sometimes you do need thick skin to survive. And sometimes you should not take things at face value at all.

Thick skins

Posted Jul 18, 2013 6:21 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

I also find Linus's behavior rarely if ever abusive, also because usually he's quite polite towards people that are trusted. (Frankly not always, but in general that is true).

But I was just now skimming the "recent patches" on LWN and found this:

> So you try to sell that qrwlock as a replacement for ticket spinlocks,
> while at the same time you omit the fact that we have an even better
> implementation (except for the last test case) already in the
> kernel. What's the point of this exercise?
>
> ...
>
> We really need proper explanations and not some guess based drivel to
> assess that.

The rest of the message contains many reasonable and insightful observations, but is it really necessary to talk about "guess based drivel" and accuse the poster of faking/withholding experimental data?

I call *this* lack of professionalism (and also the ARM example linked to in the article). I'd take a million swear words, it doesn't matter if English or Italian or Finnish, over this.

Thick skins, and women

Posted Jul 18, 2013 23:21 UTC (Thu) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (3 responses)

I am sorry, I go far beyond axboe, this is a storm in a thimble, Linus is often very rude and usually right.

This silly woman should STFU and stop working on the kernel and go back to sandal knitting.

I for one am sick and tired of special case identity politics and PC. from women. They want to play, then play don't start asking to change the rules

Thick skins, and women

Posted Jul 18, 2013 23:36 UTC (Thu) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link]

Now *this* is a prime example of toxic bullshit.

*Plonk*

FWIW, there are loads of discussions on -lk where I find the tone inappropriate, but usually it's not the ones where Linus got fed-up but longer standing personal things between people.

Thick skins, and women

Posted Jul 20, 2013 14:08 UTC (Sat) by lemmings (guest, #53618) [Link]

Your misogynistic comments are not acceptable in any community of decent human beings. A basic capacity for empathy should demonstrate to you why that is the case.

Also, Sarah's message had absolutely nothing to do with her gender anyway so your comments are even further off the mark.

Decent human beings are sick and tired of putting up with jerks like you.

Thick skins, and women

Posted Dec 19, 2013 11:32 UTC (Thu) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link]

Seriously ? Is that an argument?

"It is known that every single woman in the world does sandal knitting and can't program."

It's also known that every stupid man in the world think that every woman in the world does sandal knitting.

You have to understand that women doesn't threaten your manhood. In a (technical) world were women are often degraded and seen as subplayers, they have a clear right to advocate for rule changing. Just like they did in the past when they campaigned to get the right to vote. Like they did in the past to recclaim their own body. You may not like this but you're fooling yourself if you think it will not happen.

Getting your old fashionned sexist comment is just unneeded anymore. It's not women who have to adapt to a sexist world. It's the sexist world that must disapear - and hopefully, it will. Your comment just make you look like a dinosaurus who does not realize he's already out of time.