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Posted May 10, 2013 21:45 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953)
In reply to: Dumb by rcweir
Parent article: Results of the Apache OpenOffice 4.0 Logo Survey

I believe what Bruce was arguing is that you are using the opinions and input of amateurs rather than seeking expert advice. The implication being that at the end of the day what you end up selecting will be totally the creation of amateurs, even if this is just the first stage of that selection.

I'm not saying I agree with Bruce, just that you focused on the vote comment without addressing the substance. I have no stake or even opinion on whether amateurs or professional designers do a better jobs on logo's.

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Posted May 10, 2013 22:01 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]

Uhhhh... but we do have professional designers involved. We're just not paying for them. They are volunteering. This is open source. You did read the blog post, right?

The survey was not to replace professional design experience, but to provide them with supplemental information from users in our actual market (or "amateurs" as you call them).

Do you think that would be OK with Bruce? Or do you think that it is better to make marketing decisions without actually consulting users at any stage?


Posted May 10, 2013 22:16 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]

Oh, and I should state what should be obvious, but might not be to anyone who didn't actually read the blog post, that the logos from the professional designers rose to the top in the survey. But the comments on those logos, received from thousands of users, were still invaluable.

For example, even a talented and experienced designer might not know which logo resembled a logo of a political party, or which one had unlucky associations in Chinese. For a global brand like Apache OpenOffice, such feedback from users is not just a good idea, it is essential.

In most cases the professional designers submitted multiple or even many variations on the logo, so information on how they polled was good information even for the professionally-designed logos.

So, it just boggles the mind to think that there are some who just don't get it when it comes to open source. "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" applies to all aspects of the product, not just to source code. So the evident disdain for open source methods, expressed by some here is sad, very sad.

If Bruce wanted to make an constructive contribution we all know he is capable of doing this. But his choice of title and his comments show he was more interested in airing his prejudices against OpenOffice than actually contributing to the topic at hand. He is not alone, sadly. But as I've said before, that is why I pay to subscribe to -- so I can get my FUD a week early.


Posted May 11, 2013 3:18 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

Interesting point. I'd not thought to apply the bugs concept to such things.

(Amusingly, i'm wearing my IBM shirt I got from the OU Supercomputing symposium, and worked on software for z/OS. Seems to be an IBM day. :-)


Posted May 11, 2013 3:58 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

The entire point of "given enough eyeballs" is that the eyeballs belong to competent programmers who are engaged in modifying the code, or at least developing an understanding of the code with the intent of modifying it.

The equivalent would be having a great many qualified marketers work collaboratively. I'm sure you have some, but no so many that "many eyes" applies.

Many eyes with no concept of marketing principles would work on a marketing problem about as well as a roomful of monkeys do at typing out Shakespeare.


Posted May 11, 2013 11:34 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]

I suppose you are opposed to beta testing software, because that puts the bugs in front of the unwashed masses rather than an elite group of programmers?

Of course the people filling out the survey are not the competent designers. They represent the target market for the logo, the end users. The people looking at the feedback from the survey are the competent designers. They appreciate the feedback and the comments they received from users in our target market. It is one source of information that feeds into the process, but not the only one.

Of course your analogy is flawed since we're not asking your "monkeys" or (whatever you want to compare open source users to today) to design a logo, or write play. We're only looking for feedback from the very group of people to whom the logo is targeted. Think of it as feedback and part of iterative design. Those familiar with User Centered Design would understand this best. But the concept is not difficult.

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