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Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 17, 2013 19:41 UTC (Sun) by butlerm (guest, #13312)
In reply to: Opera moves to WebKit and V8 by raven667
Parent article: Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Nothing about IP requires such an assumption to be made. Multicast is about the only reasonable way to accomplish a large scale IPTV deployment, and it works well for that. It is only within the Internet backbone that IP multicast is impractical, at the edges it works fine.


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Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 3:44 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

I think you are agreeing with me, multicast on the Internet is impractical, although I will also point out that most video on the Internet is unicast (Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, etc.) and not multicast. Multicast seems only to be used in campus and other large scale environments within a single network/administrative domain and even that seems to be fading out.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 4:42 UTC (Mon) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

multicast video only works if everyone wants to watch the same thing at the same time.

most people who could use IP TV are not going to be doing this. They will watch the show they want to watch at the time they want to watch it, and the number of other people who start watching the same show at the same time is so small as to be meaningless.

For broadcasts of live events (political speeches, Sports events, etc) there may be a small niche, but is that really worth the effort of implementing it across such a large infrastructure?

remember that if people aren't consuming the content, all you are doing is wasting available bandwidth.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 12:12 UTC (Mon) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

It works if everyone is OK with receiving the content at the same time, which is not the same thing as watching it. A lot of people are OK with subscribing to something in advance, caching the content when it's released, and then watching it shortly afterwards at their convenience - it's what people do with PVRs and traditional broadcast TV.

A model that worked like that over multicast IP, plus a relatively smaller number of unicast streams for 'catch up' services, should be more bandwidth efficient than unicasting to everyone.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 13:27 UTC (Mon) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Unfortunately the cost saving from multicast assumes a traditional IP network. In this respect DSL still looks like dial-up did, with every subscriber at the end of a PPP connection. An ISP gets a whole pile of point-to-point links from a nearby POP. The physical infrastructure is largely hidden from ISPs, so there is no way to save money on the expensive long-haul. If you've got data in London, and it needs to go to 600 subscribers in Cardiff, you have to send and pay for 600 copies of the data.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 16:35 UTC (Mon) by butlerm (guest, #13312) [Link]

For IP multicast to be useful on a large scale, it must be implemented by the last mile ISP. That is easy enough though - locate a distribution node on the ISP network, unicast across the backbone to it, and then multicast from it to the ISP customers. Every wireline television system in the world is likely to look like this in a few years. Television meaning real time, not stored content distribution.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 14:47 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>For broadcasts of live events (political speeches, Sports events, etc) there may be a small niche, but is that really worth the effort of implementing it across such a large infrastructure?

There actually seems to be a fairly large market for live-streamed video, like Twitch and Ustream, or YouTube's live option. However, I don't think any services like this actually try to multicast over the internet; it's unicast all the way[0].

So I guess the answer is 'no' - it's not really worth the effort, even when live video broadcast to tens of thousands of destinations is your principle business; possibly once it scales up to millions is where things start to look different, but at that volume you can invest in the infrastructure to avoid having to send it over the internet.

[0] Last year's edition of TCP/IP Illustrated still describes multicasting over the internet as "ongoing effort...for more than a decade", which seems to correlate with the general consensus I got from Google of "don't even try"

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 15:54 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

So I guess the answer is 'no' - it's not really worth the effort, even when live video broadcast to tens of thousands of destinations is your principle business; possibly once it scales up to millions is where things start to look different, but at that volume you can invest in the infrastructure to avoid having to send it over the internet.

Here in Germany, Deutsche Telekom is happy to sell you access to IP-based high-definition broadcast television, in competition with traditional cable TV providers. They do have a couple of million users. In this context, IP multicast, which is in fact being used, makes a great deal of sense.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 16:02 UTC (Mon) by johill (subscriber, #25196) [Link]

Yep, but that doesn't contradict nye's point -- this isn't on the Internet, it's entirely on their own infrastructure.

Opera moves to WebKit and V8

Posted Feb 18, 2013 19:12 UTC (Mon) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

but don't they also sell the functional equivalent of a DVR along with that? and don't most users heavily use the DVR functionality to watch shows on their schedule?

If so, it's not really a broadcast situation.


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