Python trademark at risk in Europe [LWN.net]

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 17, 2013 1:53 UTC (Sun) by AngryChris (subscriber, #74783)
Parent article: Python trademark at risk in Europe

So what happens if this UK company is awarded the trademark? European developers can't use python anymore? What is the actual impact?

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Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 17, 2013 17:29 UTC (Sun) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (13 responses)

Not being a lawyer and only describing my impressions from previous situations of this kind, the risk is that anyone offering products and services that involve and thus mention the Python programming language in their name might be told by the aspiring trademark holder to stop doing so, with the argument being that people might get confused between those products and the products of the aspiring trademark holder.

So, if I were running a company called "Paul's Python Hosting" or had a product of that name, even though everyone in the target audience for my product (and the majority of potential hosting customers) would realise that the product involves hosting for software and services written using the Python programming language, I might be told to lose the "Python" from the name because some people might mix it up with a particular company's products (that as far as I know are not even available yet and certainly haven't been available globally for over twenty years).

Being told not to use a name that is widely known and commonly associated with a specific technology when describing that technology would certainly be an injustice, although it obviously wouldn't stop people using the technology or even the name in many other contexts. However, I am reminded of the much more blatant injustice of the MobiliX case (http://tuxmobil.org/mobilix_asterix.htm) where a trademark holder was (and maybe still is) attempting to assert ownership of a class of names, not just one.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 18, 2013 16:06 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (12 responses)

There's nothing to stop the trademark holder from asking you to stop using their trademark.

But they need to ask a court to force you. And these people would lose fair and square. All the Python people would need to do is produce a couple of documents from back in the day in 1995 or whenever, and the Judge would toss the trademark as invalid. Prior use trumps registration! Which is why, with all the software I've tried to start, I always stick a (TM) after the name. It's not a formal registration, but it's a stake in the ground making a claim. And that stake WILL void any formal claim made later by someone else.

The problem is (admittedly to a far lesser extent than in the US) that this whole mess causes uncertainty and expense. Legally, it's extremely clear cut. If Python was using that name before the trademark was registered, then it's up to the trademark holder to prove that they were using it earlier still.

I personally couldn't, but someone could set up a new burger bar called McDonalds and there's nothing the big burger chain could do about it - AS LONG AS the guy setting it up was called McDonald (and hadn't changed his name by deed poll, as this would be seen as an end-run round the rules).

Cheers,
Wol

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 22, 2013 13:28 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (11 responses)

> Prior use trumps registration! [...] Legally, it's extremely clear cut.

I don't think so. According to http://www.wipo.int/madrid/en/faq/trademarks.html#P41_1812

> In countries which have a legal system based on common law, “prior use” is generally sufficient for claiming rights over a given trademark in case of dispute. In civil law countries, however, this is usually not the case.

Europe has many civil law countries.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 24, 2013 12:39 UTC (Sun) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link] (10 responses)

> Europe has many civil law countries.

I didn't research but hope civil law countries are in the majority. Judges making case law seems to be a major violation of the principle of separation of powers.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Feb 24, 2013 16:33 UTC (Sun) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Civil law countries are the vast majority everywhere; only the UK and its former colonies use common law.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 1:47 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

Civil law was, I believe, invented by Napoleon. Hence its overwhelming use in Continental Europe and their colonies.

As for Common Law, it is NOT "Judges inventing case law". It comes from Englands "Courts of Equity" which, in turn, looks like it comes from the Judaic Judges. Read the Book of Judges, which describes Jewish life before their first King, Saul.

The Courts of Equity settled civil disputes between citizens. And before the reforms in Dickensian times (is it Great Expectations?), there was no case law - every dispute was settled "on the merits" based on the prejudices of the Judge and no reference (much) to anything else.

Statute law over-rides case law, in any case. And actually, there really is in law something called "time immemorial". It's the law as it was before the system of statute law was set up in 1200 and something (Magna Carta and all that). In other words, Common Law.

Like everything else, Common Law can be a good thing, or a bad thing. When you have sensible Judges able to use their discretion, it works well (like in the UK). When you have Judges hidebound by precedent and pretty much forbidden from using their judgement and common sense (like in the US) it's a mess.

From a common-law viewpoint, civil law looks an awful mess and I'm glad we don't have it ...

Cheers,
Wol

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 7:56 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

Civil law was, I believe, invented by Napoleon.

Civil law actually goes back to the Romans, plus medieval influences. Napoleon promulgated a set of laws called the Code Civil, which is generally seen as an embodiment of the ideas of civil law, but not as the origin of these ideas.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 13:24 UTC (Fri) by Jonno (guest, #49613) [Link] (1 responses)

>Civil law actually goes back to the Romans
While what the Romans had is what eventually evolved into the modern civil law system, they lacked the primary feature of modern civil law: A single book (or otherwise well-defined collection of documents that can be re-published as a single book) that is "the law".

To my knowledge the first one of those was the Code Civil by Napoleon, marking it the first civil law system, as the term is understood today.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 16:32 UTC (Fri) by jwakely (subscriber, #60262) [Link]

Didn't Byzantium have several well-defined collections of "the law"? Creating such collections was a bit of a hobby for some emperors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_law
(Or "what have the Nova Romans ever done for us?")

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 9:47 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Bleak House, containing the equity (rather than common-law) case of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 18:09 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

As for Common Law, it is NOT "Judges inventing case law". It comes from Englands "Courts of Equity" which, in turn, looks like it comes from the Judaic Judges. Read the Book of Judges, which describes Jewish life before their first King, Saul.

My understanding is that it derives from a system which predates the Norman Conquest, and is similar to systems known in Icelandic and other Scandinavian cultures. Pre-Christian, so highly unlikely to be related to anything in the Book of Judges.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 19:11 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (guest, #307) [Link] (2 responses)

You do know that the Book of Judges is on the Old Testament, don't you? It is the seventh book on the Bible.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 20:27 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (1 responses)

It seems exceedingly unlikely that anyone shared the contents of the Tanakh with the Germanic peoples in Scandinavia prior to the arrival of Christian proselytizers carrying Greek translations.

Python trademark at risk in Europe

Posted Mar 1, 2013 21:14 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (guest, #307) [Link]

For the second time in a couple of days (that I am aware of) I made a fool out of myself, because I did not take the time to fully understand what I was responding to.

I apologize, especially to nix, but to other people on the thread too.

IOW, nix is absolutely right.