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25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

Posted Feb 4, 2013 9:45 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950)
In reply to: 25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women by efraim
Parent article: 25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

I find it interesting that you:
* assume that the initial behaviour can be fixed by GNOME
* that the behaviour is displayed by my colleagues
* that the only way to get more women is to change behaviour which happened way before I ever met those women

I'm not talking about being a jerk towards or anything like that. It is things like often being questioned why they're interested in computers. Hearing crap as "I'm probably not good in this as I'm a woman". Various women I've talked to have been discouraged in some way their entire lifetime.

In any case blujay's post is a response to GNOME's outreach program for women. We do not discourage anyone else from participating. We have other programs we participate in. As such, yes, I find it unreasonable. There is 0 reason to suddenly start talking that someones response might be appropriate for another program. That's like picking arguments as you go along. He was talking about this program.

I do understand the hesitation. I had huge doubts about this program. I also wondered for a long time why not to fix things at the source (technically, this feels like a workaround rather than fixing it at the root cause). But this program seems to work, and brings benefits *now*.


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25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

Posted Feb 4, 2013 10:25 UTC (Mon) by efraim (guest, #65977) [Link]

I never assumed anything. That's just the picture I got from your previous comments: I don't know how about you but I do find "You are probably not good in this as you are a woman" to be a jerkish comment. Do you disagree? I sure would not say one to any woman and I do find it hard to believe one any of my co-workers would.

Furthermore, I do not assume the initial behavior can be fixed by GNOME, and I furthermore think that this is not a universal "women-in-computing" problem but a society-specific problem, which should be solved in those societies which exhibit it and not through universal organizations like GNOME.

So, I guess I disagree with:
1. The claim there is a universal women-in-computing problem. There are society-wide problems. (I guess it is different between countries and even specific neighborhoods)
And therefor
2. I doubt GNOME can do much to resolve the problem.

25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

Posted Feb 4, 2013 22:01 UTC (Mon) by marinaz (guest, #72670) [Link]

" So, I guess I disagree with:
1. The claim there is a universal women-in-computing problem. There are society-wide problems. (I guess it is different between countries and even specific neighborhoods)
And therefor
2. I doubt GNOME can do much to resolve the problem."

1. The problem of very few women becoming Free Software contributors affects all societies, regardless of the percentage of women who work on the proprietary software. Otherwise we would evidently have a large representation of women from a particular society, something I'm not aware of.

2. What GNOME and the Free Software community can do is help women who are teetering on the edge of the Free Software community integrate more fully, raise awareness of the value of Free Software contributions and the friendliness of the large parts of the Free Software community among women in technology, provide women contributing to different projects in Free Software a support network so that they don't feel so alone, and show that there are more women interested in contributing to Free Software than are already contributing. This solves problems on a certain level and helps specific people who have reached that level now (namely the 72 interns the program had so far).

Programs like this one also add to the general conversation on the subject and are *part* of the solution. No one effort can be *the* solution for something as complex as this. On other levels there are geeky parents ( http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2012/11/07/flip-all-the-pronouns ), building toys made attractive to girls already conditioned to like pink (Goldie Blox, Lego Friends), all sorts of math, science, technology, and robotics outreach for girls in school, and finally in Free Software OpenHatch that makes and extra effort to reach out to women with introduction to Free Software events in colleges and the Ada Initiative that helps make all Free Software conferences safer for women and fosters a community of women and their supporters in Free Software.

25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women

Posted Feb 7, 2013 12:48 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Your end with a #1 and a #2, but they don't align, so I don't understand what you're saying.
You disagree that "I doubt GNOME can do much to resolve the problem". So you agree that GNOME can change society? Or does "the problem" refer to something else? Or did you not align things properly and you mean I should ignore the "I disagree with".

In any case: "I never assumed anything. That's just the picture I got from your previous comments". I never said anything about my colleagues, you assumed I was talking about colleagues. Calling an assumption a picture does not really matter IMO.

In any case, I refute that GNOME should not fix this. But at least it is clear that society specific problems should not be actioned by specific societies. I don't get at all why you need to direct people on what they must not do, really.


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