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you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Jan 29, 2013 11:17 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
In reply to: you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together. by raven667
Parent article: Poettering: The Biggest Myths

To be honest, if the default journal is an in-memory passthrough, I don't see why anyone would care, anymore than anyone says that syslog-ng has an 'extra useless log' because it does in-memory buffering to keep disk I/O down.

If one said that systemd had an *optional* field-structured message log, would this suddenly make this problem go away, even though the only difference is to change terminology and declare the journal 'off' rather than 'in-memory'?

(The only thing I really disliked about the journal was the explicit lack of definition of the binary journal format. Since this has now been rectified, my complaints about it are gone.)


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you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Jan 31, 2013 19:07 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> If one said that systemd had an *optional* field-structured message log, would this suddenly make this problem go away, even though the only difference is to change terminology and declare the journal 'off' rather than 'in-memory'?

I suspect a great deal of the push-back against systemd comes from this very thing. Given the option of talking about it in a way that doesn't rile people up and talking about it in a way that does, the latter is what happens. If the story were "systemd internally uses its own field-structured log format but still outputs logs to syslog by default (or you can just use the internal format directly)" then you'd see more acceptance, but the story was "systemd has replaced syslog with a new, undocumented, non-text log format." If the goal wasn't to annoy people then I can only say that there exists an incredible natural talent for annoyance which is being wasted in the field of software engineering.

you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Jan 31, 2013 19:41 UTC (Thu) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

remember, this isn't just systemd's internal logs, systemd intercepts logs that the apps write to syslog and turn them into this new structure as well.

you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Jan 31, 2013 20:42 UTC (Thu) by davidstrauss (subscriber, #85867) [Link]

> remember, this isn't just systemd's internal logs, systemd intercepts logs that the apps write to syslog and turn them into this new structure as well.

Just keep omitting that systemd's journal forwards the entries *unaltered as syslog*, and you might convince some people that the journal breaks their traditional syslog toolchain.

you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Jan 31, 2013 20:46 UTC (Thu) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

look at the context, I am replying to someone explaining how presenting how the journal deals with logs differently could avoid antagonizing people. I am just pointing out that his statement is not complete, it's not just the internal journald logs that are involved.

you do NOT need to write all your programs together to make them work together.

Posted Feb 1, 2013 1:21 UTC (Fri) by davidstrauss (subscriber, #85867) [Link]

> look at the context, I am replying to someone explaining how presenting how the journal deals with logs differently could avoid antagonizing people. I am just pointing out that his statement is not complete, it's not just the internal journald logs that are involved.

I'm aware of the context. I just think it's disingenuous to use how the systemd's journal maintains its own data structures to imply some change happens that creates complexity for syslog users.

Use of internal data structures is true of any log daemon, including rsyslog. Saying that the journal "turn[s] them into this new structure as well" implies that the syslog messages emitted by the journal are not identical to the messages sent in, which is false.

The journal goes beyond syslog, but it does not get in its way or force users to change any existing applications, monitoring, or workflows.

When we updated our configurations for Fedora 17 (the first release with the journal), we didn't have to touch anything to continue getting the same syslog messages we got before in the same places we had always looked for them.


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