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Classic mode questions

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 27, 2013 14:11 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
In reply to: Classic mode questions by drago01
Parent article: Clasen: GNOME 3.7 at the halfway mark

My desktop wasn't broken before. It broke with GNOME's window-manager adding 3D as a requirement!

The problems with nouveau's 3D support and GNOME-Shell are not exactly there because of a lack of my bug-report. Look in the bug trackers yourself I'd love to see nouveau support improve.

I have in the past donated money to or bought things from wish-lists for various projects and people. Ideally, I'd pay the employer of the majority of GNOME and Linux graphics hackers, but they don't (yet?) have any offering of support for GNOME shell, afaik. Been less able to do this the last few years, for personal financial reasons.

I guess there's lessons here for me about what I should rely on.


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Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:11 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

> My desktop wasn't broken before. It broke with GNOME's window-manager adding 3D as a requirement!

You can't expect developers to not utilise the hardware that is available because there is a bug on your system. Apparently it either always has been broken (and you just did not notice it) or it coincidently broke at the same time you upgraded to GNOME3 (by getting the broken driver at the same upgrade).

> The problems with nouveau's 3D support and GNOME-Shell are not exactly there because of a lack of my bug-report. Look in the bug trackers yourself I'd love to see nouveau support improve.

[citation needed]. Which bugs? Sure there are bugs but stop claiming that GNOME3 does not work on nouveau just because it hits a particular bug on your system. Just tested it again (NVA0 GPU) works just fine.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:32 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

My original comment was about the mean-time-between-lockups. Yes, it works initially. Now stick with the Nouveau drivers...

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:38 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Also, you keep interacting with me by blaming me as being the cause of why I (and evidently others) are blocked from using GNOME shell because of problems related to its 3D dependency.

Note that I'm not blaming any one, I'm just giving factual statements as to what led me to make the decisions I did. I suggest you reflect on the utility of reacting to such by blaming me.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 27, 2013 18:08 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

I am not blaming you for anything I just replied to your statement "I guess the GNOME answer is that I'm supposed to buy a new graphics card, or computer." saying that buying new hardware is not necessary fixing the driver is sufficient.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 28, 2013 14:36 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>saying that buying new hardware is not necessary fixing the driver is sufficient.

Your 'sufficient' solution is orders of magnitude more difficult than the 'not necessary' solution. Fixing this requires either:
a) Finding and employing a team of sufficiently skilled people for sufficient time to solve the problem - let's say financing ten person-years, for a rough order of magnitude (I would hope it's somewhat less than ten, but one is clearly unrealistic, given that it entails catching up with a constantly moving target from a position quite a long way behind)
b) Waiting until either somebody else does this, or
c) Waiting until enough volunteer time goes in to provide the equivalent result.

Some combination of b and c is the most probable outcome, but we're still looking at a few years yet, at least. In comparison, buying new hardware is simple and relatively cheap.

That's not to say that it's the *best* solution, since clearly we'd all like to have working high-quality drivers for all the hardware we can buy, but saying "oh, x isn't necessary because you can just do y" is silly when x is a far easier option than y.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 28, 2013 18:44 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

> Your 'sufficient' solution is orders of magnitude more difficult than the 'not necessary' solution.

Depends on the bug in question ... we don't have any details nor a bug report with details.

> a) Finding and employing a team of sufficiently skilled people for sufficient time to solve the problem - let's say financing ten person-years, for a rough order of magnitude..

No idea where you are getting this numbers from but if fixing it costs more then buying new hardware then sure go ahead and buy new hardware. To go back to the car analogy if fixing the car costs more then buying a new one I'd rather go and buy a new one.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 28, 2013 21:34 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

There is little point in me filing a bug, as I have little information other than "{graphics,machine} locked up hard, reboot needed". I didn't notice any particular pattern to when it would happen. Any bug I'd file would have a low S/N ratio. I doubt I am only one seeing this with Nouveau, e.g., just from the last few months:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?list_id=1055201&...

I don't think it is terribly controversial to say that 3D with Nouveau is less than super-stable. The driver is also blacklisted by Google Chromium for WebGL, for whatever that's worth (they seem to have a high bar though).

My solution for now is to use a desktop that exercises only the more mature, 2D parts of the graphics driver. I may give a GNOME shell / mutter based environment (i.e. Cinnamon) another go when I upgrade to F18, as it has a blacklist and (I gather) will fallback to soft-rendering (or can be made to).

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 29, 2013 11:32 UTC (Tue) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

You can set the environment variable LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE to 1 to force fallback to software rendering.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 29, 2013 14:18 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Nouveau indeed is sometimes *really* unstable. It does not lock up hard though. E.g. numlock and so on works. Wait 30 seconds or so and it recovers. Wonder if you experience the same or not.

I noticed it is related to system resources somehow. Meaning: if I don't open too many tabs in Firefox, it is way more stable.

Classic mode questions

Posted Jan 29, 2013 16:57 UTC (Tue) by Thanatopsis (guest, #14019) [Link]

I'm a big Open Source advocate and whenever possible, I use and support such software. Sometimes it just doesn't work. I've encountered issues with the Nouveau driver in the past, particularly running programs under WINE. Try using the Nvidia driver. Fixed the problems I was encountering.


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