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Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 27, 2013 3:55 UTC (Sun) by mgb (guest, #3226)
In reply to: Poettering: The Biggest Myths by nirbheek
Parent article: Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Permit me to observe that it is not what you have read but what you have written which reminds one of Slashdot.

Perhaps you would care to try again with something which was not an ad-hominem attack and with some technical input beyond "lots of shiny features",

Today's tool-set unixen enable evolution in all directions including into monoliths. Perhaps you would care to explain how future unixen can as easily evolve away from monoliths when a systemd replacement would have to replace so much in one shot?


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Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 27, 2013 5:29 UTC (Sun) by imitev (guest, #60045) [Link]

Xorg is being slowly stripped of its features, it's not happening at once: KMS in kernel (talking of a monolith ?), wayland with compat layer, ...

I remember the pain of deploying init scripts to multiple distros so I can only welcome Poettering's efforts to try to improve things. Yes, some shinysmart features happen to come together.
You say you're in FLOSS for the long haul so you know well that nobody is pushing you to use systemd. If your favorite distro chooses to use systemd there might be a good reason, but you could always switch to another one. You may also join force to influence systemd's development, or even write your own init replacement, if it's really good enough people will adopt it for sure. But complaining about systemd becoming a monolith is not true nor fair. Did you really read the article ?

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 30, 2013 2:55 UTC (Wed) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

Xorg is being slowly stripped of its features, it's not happening at once: KMS in kernel (talking of a monolith ?), wayland with compat layer, ...

... what? All the old userspace drivers work just as well in Xorg as they ever used to: full of massive security holes, unable to do proper cross-process zerocopy buffer sharing, not playing well with other Xorg sessions, prone to hard-locking your machine when Xorg crashes, et al. It's just that the newer driver versions now reside in the kernel. Use the old ones if you want to. XWayland is also a new additional feature, rather than feature removal.

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:25 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

The old userspace drivers are merely a legacy thing nowadays. In fact, the radeon driver recently dropped userspace mode setting support iirc. So X.org is in fact losing features, because they're being moved to other parts of the graphics stack.

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 27, 2013 10:28 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

grotesque monolith actively being exploited as a power play by its author

You wrote above, don't complain when people question you about it, or say that this is Slashdot style commentary. I also don't understand your response, is it an attempt at a better comment or not?

Now for what you're suggesting, you argue (as I see it) that 1) systemd is monolithic, 2) in evolution, it needs all to be replaced in one go and #3 adopting something can only be done if it can easily be replaced. For #1, suggest to read the article. For #2, just change individual components as needed. For #3, I disagree :P.

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 9:02 UTC (Mon) by russell (guest, #10458) [Link]

You really don't understand that the power play comment? Don't be deliberately naive and address the comment directly. He's referring to the way systemd has used it's foot hold as an init system, to then leverage into adjacent software, such as udev and system logging. This is not just creating an integrated system, that would involve just using well defined interfaces. This is a power play to reimplement them "his" way. What is a distro to do now. Take on the new "features" or revert from systemd?

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 9:17 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Let's go back to the comment again:

grotesque monolith actively being exploited as a power play by its author

And no, I don't see a) why to use grotesque b) why to ignore monolith as this is addressed in the article c) why to use exploited and d) power play

Now you're trying to change this, question why I don't address the comment. However, I did so as best I understood. Furthermore you've stated that I'm deliberate naive? Right, great suggestion there. If you follow the thread you'd see he wondered why people said it was Slashdot style commentary. Read https://lwn.net/Articles/534230/. I exactly addressed this as well.

Ignoring everything like that and suggesting I'm deliberate naive: whatever. And I don't see this power play happening. Suggest that you read all the comments on LWN and in the article because e.g. I can still run syslog, he discusses things with distributions, etc. If you want to continue please at least show that you read the blog or the comments here.

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 12:50 UTC (Mon) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

>> This is a power play to reimplement them "his" way.
>> What is a distro to do now.

Switch to systemd. Just like, for example, they switched to pulseaudio.

Because, unlike code from certain other people who implemented stuff "their way" (I'm thinking about djb), Lennart's way works. It solves real problems, without stepping on too many other people's feet.

He's matured a lot since the pulseaudio flame wars.

And, hey, OF COURSE it's a powerful ego trip to see your work being used and enhanced and whatnot by so many people. But that's not necessarily bad!

For most people it's a powerful motivator to create even more good stuff.

So what's your problem?

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 17:06 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

> So what's your problem?

Maybe he's a lobster in a bucket, trying to pull the other lobsters down (Thanks Aquabats!)

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 17:28 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yup. And Linux is just a power play to expand into the area of version control systems. Linus hated Subversion so much that he created Linux in order to make git popular.

Right?

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 28, 2013 18:44 UTC (Mon) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]

> Yup. And Linux is just a power play to expand into the area of version control systems. Linus hated Subversion so much that he created Linux in order to make git popular.

Actually, he probably does hate subversion enough to have done that. :)

Poettering: The Biggest Myths

Posted Jan 29, 2013 11:19 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

No no no, he hated *CVS* enough to do that. And this was an entirely rational attitude.


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