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Quotes of the week

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:16 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
In reply to: Quotes of the week by mirabilos
Parent article: Quotes of the week

> Current culture, over “here”, is *not* “women are weird beings from some other planet, unless they solder with us”, it’s “huh, man, woman, who cares, just do your stuff well”.

There's ample evidence that that's not true.


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Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:19 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

Over “here”, it’s true.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:21 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The only way that could be true is if "over here" is inside your imagination.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:36 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

Right, and you can divine that, from hundreds of kilometres away.</sarcasm>

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:55 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I've no idea where you live. It doesn't matter. Nobody has so far created a society free of prejudice or bias. There's nowhere you can live and be assured that you'll be treated equally regardless of race, gender or sexuality. Ironically, by insisting that there's no problem, you're telling all of those groups who experience systematic prejudice that their opinions aren't worth anything, proving them right.

There are documented cases of sexist behaviour at CCC. The only way you can ignore them is to classify the victims as oversensitive, and then you have to come up with an argument for why women are so much more oversensitive than men are without compromising your claimed freedom from sexism.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:36 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

I’d like to know where I “insist” that there is “no” problem. I just notice that the problem seems to be _largely_ american/australian.

Actually, I don’t want to know. I don’t want to discuss on this endlessly. And feel free to not read the Quotes of the Week any more if you don’t like them. This is generally recommended, e.g. with Fanfic: don’t like, don’t read; but especially, don’t flame.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:39 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The bit where you said 'Current culture, over “here”, is *not* “women are weird beings from some other planet, unless they solder with us”, it’s “huh, man, woman, who cares, just do your stuff well”'. That's pretty explicitly saying that there isn't a problem where you are.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:44 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

Ah well. That *is* true in the circles I normally move. (The CCC explicitly is no part of it ☺ after attending four congresses and also otherwise seeing more, I decided I’m not CCC “affine”.)

I’ll now shut up and hack. I’ve got better to do than this. And I suggest you do, too. Just, dear LWN editor, keep us the quotes.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:51 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

No, it's not. You've just all deluded yourselves into thinking it is.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:58 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

(Hmpf, the hard part about having enabled email notifications is it’s hard to actually ignore a thing, even after exiting the GUI webbrowser…)

You know, that sole statement of yours is enough to ridicule yourself. I used to take statements of yours, like the tytso thing, serious (although I did check the sources), but now, I cannot take anything you say serious any more.

“You've just all deluded yourselves into thinking it is.” is accusing me of lying and an unasked-for ad-hominem attack (not just at me but also at my friends, from a person hundreds of kilometres away who even CANNOT know). It just shows you’re… psychic, in lack of a better English word for what I wanted to say. Obsessed, maybe. I don’t even *want* to know why, but this says enough.

End of thread, now definitely. I see no reason to talk with you.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 22:14 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

You're not lying about your belief that there's no problem. You're just not seeing it, and then assuming that you can't see it it's not there. I don't think you're likely to engage in overtly sexist behaviour, and I doubt that most of the people you work with are either. But the problem isn't so much the individual acts of overtly sexist behaviour. Low level sexism is still endemic in society as a whole (advertising may well be less sexist than it was in, say, the 60s, but look at the extent to which gender roles are still used to sell things), and even if you're actively aware of it then you *will* occasionally find yourself interacting with a stereotype of a person rather than the person themselves.

I'm not calling you sexist. I'm not calling any of the people you associate with sexist. I'm saying that you (like everyone, including me) will engage in occasional acts of sexist behaviour, and unless you're able to see that this is what's happening it provides an environment where people feel safe in engaging in overtly sexist acts.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 9, 2013 12:03 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

> You're not lying about your belief that there's no problem. You're just not seeing it

If he's not seeing it, then there's no problem "over here" as he said, period. I can attest that it's the same in the circles I move (meaning: all the people I know in person).

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 10, 2013 8:34 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

I have to disagree with that, or else I'm misunderstanding you.

Are you really saying that if some person does not see a problem, then this by itself is proof that no problem exists ?

It is true that sexism is far from constant, and I agree with the assessment of others that women clearly aren't rare or considered outsiders by default at CCC, I attended their camp in Berlin a few years back, and though women where a minority, they where not a tiny minority. There was also several women among those leading workshops and giving lectures, and I do think that overall the atmosphere was inclusive and welcoming.

But that's not to say that there was no problems, there sure was. Was there *less* of a problem than in many other locations and environments ? Yes ! Was there "no problem" ? No !

I'm pretty sure that's true globally. Levels of problems vary wildly, yes, but I don't think it's plausible that there's anywhere where it's a fair description to say "problem solved".

And I say that coming from one of the countries on the planet that consistently score top on equal rights.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:53 UTC (Tue) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link]

Uhm, what? There's no sexism/intollerance in Europe/Germany? I (or you?) must live in a parallel universe. And yes, I include the Kongress in that.

And while I am not a DD I *certainly* welcome the diversity statement. Even if it were redundant "over here" - which I obviously don't think - I don't see the problem of making some implicit rules explicit.

Quotes of the week

Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:28 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

There's probably not “none”, but it doesn’t appear to be an issue that much. Also, there’s a trend to throw too many things under the same umbrella/name…

And I didn’t say I didn’t welcome the diversity statement; in fact, I asked those who didn’t vote to change and sign it, even though we think it implicit (no harm in explicitly stating the obvious, but a good reference/remember for later on).

I didn’t attend the congress and can only point out http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=ae1a50a0 for that, but I’ve attended lots of conferences myself, know lots of conference staff, and haven’t noticed things of the sort that’s quoted in e.g. mjg59’s articles (which, you might want to know, I also disagreed with). I’m just saying that you shouldn’t over-hype the problem (or just shout “sexism!” (or some other prestressed word) at every corner), and that one shouldn’t assume things are the same all over the world: Differentiate. There’s a difference (hah…) between discrimination and differentiation. Not all countries are equal. A man and a woman aren’t equal. Neither are my brothers and I. This, of course, doesn’t mean they have different rights, value, whatever, but equalising everything is bad. As is going into emotional (irrational; the planet-thread starting at http://ramblingfoo.blogspot.de/2012/12/faulty-logic-confu... was a good example, even with possibly bad taste, of why that's not good) modes.

As for talking to DDs, well, that just happened to happen in IRC at that time. I’m not even sure who exactly was part of the conversations. But that doesn’t disprove my point either.

Argh! This is not easy to express in English for me because I’m not sure which words or wording may be taboo or trigger for you all.

Maybe this is one of the reasons I can more easierly just chuckle-and-go-on on the “morons” quote. It’s no word of my native language, and I just know it as generic insult, not even its dictionary translation (although I maybe should look it up now), so it’s more abstract. Add to that the proverbial politeness of the Brits and the prudeness of the Americans (the whole “swear words” thing, which is to Germans like being from another galaxy – which is not to say we don’t regard language, but not like THAT, and it’s more than just the letters of a word) which may make them have a different threshold for sensing things as offensive, and you get two effects on it.


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