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Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

As we start to see more UEFI firmware become available, one would guess we'll find more exciting weirdness like what Matthew Garrett found. For whatever reason, the firmware in a Lenovo Thinkcentre M92p only wants to boot Windows or Red Hat Enterprise Linux (and, no, it is not secure boot related): "Every UEFI boot entry has a descriptive string. This is used by the firmware when it's presenting a menu to users - instead of "Hard drive 0" and "USB drive 3", the firmware can list "Windows Boot Manager" and "Fedora Linux". There's no reason at all for the firmware to be parsing these strings. But the evidence seemed pretty strong - given two identical boot entries, one saying "Windows Boot Manager" and one not, only the first would work."

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Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 15, 2012 21:19 UTC (Thu) by maney (subscriber, #12630) [Link] (1 responses)

Sounds like another clear case of bugs, damned bugs, and firmware.

a case of bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 0:02 UTC (Fri) by neonsignal (guest, #87868) [Link]

or a case of insane sanity checking...

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 15, 2012 21:32 UTC (Thu) by xorbe (guest, #3165) [Link]

Or things like the Crucial m4 SSD 010G / 01MG firmwares that sometimes don't like UEFI, and pull a disappearing act for several hours.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 15, 2012 22:13 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (6 responses)

This seems similar to the WWAN card white lists they have, where newer cards would not work in a physically compatible machine.. Instead, the BIOS claims "unauthorized card". Crap.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 0:29 UTC (Fri) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (5 responses)

This is likely due to FCC regulations. (i.e completely different cause)

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 3:36 UTC (Fri) by ringerc (subscriber, #3071) [Link] (2 responses)

Frankly, that issue is likely to be due to money-grabbing lock-in in in the name of FCC regulations that don't seem to affect Dell or Acer, just HP and Lenovo. Funny that.

I was bitten by this and remain angry about it. Lenovo have refused to cite any actual regulations, and when pressed changed their story to say that "various" rules around the world require this behaviour.

If they hadn't replaced my 3G card free-of-charge with one that's authorized by them I would've taken them to small claims court.

Please press them on this if you've been bitten too. They still haven't fixed their website and have stopped responding to correspondance.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 3:51 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (1 responses)

> I was bitten by this

As was I. That is how I know about it. It's just rubbish, really.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 4:01 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Just to be clear, I was bitten by trying a _Lenovo_ 3G card which was not on the list. So, it wasn't even from another manufacturer.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 3:47 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (1 responses)

FCC regulations are meaningless in Australia.

Just another obnoxious white list

Posted Nov 16, 2012 13:24 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Agreed.

This is not a case of government regulation. It's simply a problem caused by buying a laptop from the wrong manufacturer.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 15, 2012 22:46 UTC (Thu) by alspnost (guest, #2763) [Link] (10 responses)

Great - just ordered a new machine with (inevitably) Windows 8, UEFI and an SSD. It seems I have plenty of fun to look forward to, once I start installing Linux on it...

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 15, 2012 23:36 UTC (Thu) by PaulWay (guest, #45600) [Link] (9 responses)

This to me proves that there's also a culture amongst motherboard manufacturers - either through fear or zeal - of going a bit further than the minimum requirements and actually making Windows-only computers.

Hopefully this will see more sales for companies like ZaReason or System76, who give you computers without this kind of crap built in.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 0:43 UTC (Fri) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (8 responses)

Those companies typically resell someone else's hardware; they don't write their own BIOS.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 1:06 UTC (Fri) by PaulWay (guest, #45600) [Link] (7 responses)

Yes, but OTOH they do test that their hardware works with Linux. I imagine they'd be sourcing a different BIOS or different motherboard if it exhibited the same restriction.

Have fun,

Paul

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 10:39 UTC (Fri) by Priscus (guest, #72409) [Link] (3 responses)

I looked at zaReason laptops some years back: it was Poulsbo for netbooks and nVidia for larger laptops. Not exactly the great Linux experience I heard so much about.
Lately, they sell you less Poulsbo, and more Optimus instead. Great...

I must confess I have been most bitterly disappointed in these so-called Linus-friendly laptops.
Where are the decent, FLOSS-friendly machines (preferably not crapola left-over hardware from 5 years ago)?

Linux friendly hardware vendors

Posted Nov 16, 2012 17:06 UTC (Fri) by scottt (subscriber, #5028) [Link]

Think Penguin claims to choose their components very carefully to only use chipsets supported by the mainline kernel. Unfortunately their laptop and desktop computers seems very outdated now.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 17:49 UTC (Fri) by Trelane (guest, #56877) [Link] (1 responses)

I had a ZaReason TerraHD, and it was stock Atom+intel graphics, not Poulsbo at all. The luggable laptop has nvidia; there rest are Intel: http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/

> I looked at zaReason laptops some years back

So you didn't bother to look it up (takes about 30 seconds to do the same overview I did above) and instead went on vague, perhaps entirely incorrect memories from "some years back" and then compounded it with

> Lately, they sell you less Poulsbo, and more Optimus instead. Great...

completely incorrect and uninformed accusations.

> I must confess I have been most bitterly disappointed in these so-called Linus-friendly laptops.

They're not "linus-friendly" [sic]. They're linux pre-installed. You buy it, boot it up, enter in your new username and set your time zone and bob's your uncle.

This post brought to you by the System76 Gazelle I typed it on.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 18, 2012 16:59 UTC (Sun) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

ZaReason did sell a netbook with poulsbo graphics for some time (back when that was more or less the only option outside the underclocked Celeron with a very hot and power-draining i945 IGP).

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 17:58 UTC (Fri) by Trelane (guest, #56877) [Link] (2 responses)

> they do test that their hardware works with Linux.

They not only do that, they pre-install Linux and support it on their hardware. System76's approach is to create a special driver to fix up any lingering bugs (on the Gazelle, it says that it's adding screen brightness hotkeys and the sdcard reader), so they only ship with Ubuntu. ZaReason's approach is to ship any Linux on their machines, so if the cardreader doesn't work they just won't advertise the cardreader. So you may get a bonus upgrade in a release or two when the cardreader support lands in your distro.

In practice, I think I prefer System76's approach. My Terra HD had a lid state detection issue (tracking it down with mjg59's help, it may have been an issue with the Intel driver, but Intel wasn't forthcoming with the docs necessary to get it fixed). Whereas so far my Sytem76 Gazelle has been perfect. Of course, this is also comparing a late-edition netbook to a full i7 laptop so there might well be a hardware quality issue innate to the respective ODM markets. As others have said, they don't build their own hardware. Neither does Dell or HP or Lenovo for that matter. Instead, they all buy parts from ODMs and assemble them to the final product. So they are susceptible to the underlying ODM market--they don't have the clout of Microsoft or Apple, particularly because people insist on buying Windows laptops and putting Windows on them.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 21:39 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

The "problem" with System76's approach is what if (like me) you have an aversion to Debian (alikes)?

I'm not saying Ubuntu is a bad distro, but I've been a SuSE guy since (iirc) 5.4. It's what I support on friends' machines. And gentoo on my own machines now. My latest foray into the debian world was linux mint, which installed fine ... and then when I upgraded the system got trashed. Dunno what went wrong, couldn't fix it, and ended up overwriting it with SuSE ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 21:45 UTC (Fri) by Trelane (guest, #56877) [Link]

> The "problem" with System76's approach is what if (like me) you have an aversion to Debian (alikes)?

Of course. And you're still free to buy ZaReason instead.

The hardware still seems solid. I've booted Fedora off my old laptop's drive and it ran just fine, though it was in an external enclosure so I can't speak to its use as a full laptop.

Of course, ZaReason will support your Fedora or SuSE install if you'd prefer to go that route instead.

Obvious workaround...

Posted Nov 16, 2012 3:49 UTC (Fri) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link]

Just have two entries saying “Windows Boot Manager”, and remember which one isn't really Windows? :-)

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 5:15 UTC (Fri) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] (4 responses)

What possibility is there of cracking the UEFI firmware's encryption? Since it's an interoperability issue, I think it would come under DMCA exemption.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 6:06 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (3 responses)

In this specific case, there isn't any.

Are UEFI problems only on Windoze 8 computers?

Posted Nov 16, 2012 8:37 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (guest, #31018) [Link] (2 responses)

Would buying the same laptop but with the Windows 7 option (where it exists) kinda guarantee that we won't have to deal with this kind of issue?

Are UEFI problems only on Windoze 8 computers?

Posted Nov 16, 2012 9:04 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

No, it wouldn't - Windows 7 64-bit can use UEFI to boot, too, and can be locked down in exactly the same way. Your only option is to demand Windows 7 32-bit, where you have BIOS legacy boot requirements, and accept that that's only available on restricted hardware nowadays.

Are UEFI problems only on Windoze 8 computers?

Posted Nov 16, 2012 15:46 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

This *is* the Windows 7 version, sadly, although it's a desktop rather than a laptop.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 7:17 UTC (Fri) by eduperez (guest, #11232) [Link] (5 responses)

Fortunately, all computers I own are modern enough not to need a replacement for some years, because I really fear the day I finally need to go buy a new computer and have to deal with all this crap.

UEFI has advantages too

Posted Nov 16, 2012 8:01 UTC (Fri) by ringerc (subscriber, #3071) [Link] (2 responses)

I intentionally sought a new machine that supported UEFI, because I wanted to play with some of the awesome stuff it makes possible, like loading a firmware module to export the hard drive contents over iSCSI/NBD/whatever.

So far I've had nothing but good experiences. I turned off legacy boot in BIOS and am booting both Fedora 17 and Windows 7 with UEFI boot. It's great; they don't fight over the boot sector anymore, as they have their own separate UEFI boot partitions. Boot is faster. The "BIOS" setup interface is way less awful than anything I've ever used before. There are no volume size problems to worry about thanks to the GPT.

Don't lose sight of the fact that regular BIOSes are awful in all sorts of ways too. At least with UEFI the vendor can fix them without needing to get their bios-assembly-code magicians out of their padded room.

I'm not saying UEFI won't present problems - it does. Just that those problems are not all new or unique.

This particular issue has cropped up repeatedly in ACPI tables, to the point where Linux now just reports its self as Windows to ACPI to stop manufacturers doing idiotic things like this.

UEFI has advantages too

Posted Nov 16, 2012 12:22 UTC (Fri) by eduperez (guest, #11232) [Link]

Thanks for your feedback. When I talked about "all this crap", I was not referring to UEFI in general, but these "implementation details"; having another "feature" to check whether it works with Linux or not is a pain in the ass.

UEFI has advantages too

Posted Nov 16, 2012 15:30 UTC (Fri) by cruff (subscriber, #7201) [Link]

I too wanted to use UEFI on my new Dell Precision T3600 workstation, but I found that several recent Linux Distributions all had problems installing or running correctly once installed with UEFI enabled. I finally gave up and reenabled BIOS based booting so I could use the PERC card and get some work done. We've also seen a lot of issues getting things set just right on some IBM x3650 servers so we even have a chance at performing remote management in various problem scenarios.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 20:48 UTC (Fri) by nicku (subscriber, #777) [Link] (1 responses)

I am very happy with my Lenovo X121e. I wiped Windows off it, and it has run Fedora 17 and now 18 beautifully, booting using EFI.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 21:21 UTC (Fri) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link]

I have and love an x121e, boot Linux exclusively and didn't realise that it supported EFI. Is there any reason I might consider using it?

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 17, 2012 18:09 UTC (Sat) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm happy to hear of this bug.

It means that the trademarks "Windows" and "Red Hat" are now legally open for dilution due to interoperability requirements.

With luck, MS and RH's trademark attorneys will be all over this to shut it down, but failing that, it's time to start asking EFF et al. to get a case opened with the Federal Trade Commission.

This situation is BS of a high order.

And it's obviously not a "bizarre bug", but a deliberate misfeature.

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 18, 2012 2:56 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (4 responses)

You're asserting that the behaviour of a third party with no ownership of a trademark can trigger interoperability exemptions that would result in trademark dilution?

Garrett: More in the series of bizarre UEFI bugs

Posted Nov 18, 2012 9:40 UTC (Sun) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

third party use of a trademarked term can cause it to be diluted. It was millions of third parties using the word 'xerox' instead of 'photocopy' that diluted that trademark.

Two half-formed thoughts

Posted Nov 18, 2012 12:22 UTC (Sun) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

Two half-formed thoughts, the first is that the fun thing about _trademarks_ unlike copyrights or patents is that they require active defence.

If board vendor X happens to use Microsoft's copyrighted code without permission, and you tell Microsoft and they don't do anything about it, that changes nothing, you're no closer to being allowed to use that code. Likewise if the board vendor uses Microsoft's patented algorithm and you tell Microsoft and they don't do anything about it, that again changes nothing and you're no closer to being allowed to use the patented algorithm.

But if a board vendor burns Microsoft's trademark "Windows" into stuff and you tell Microsoft about it but they choose to take no action, that's evidence of abandonment. The mark's protected status is harmed albeit slightly, obviously one board from one vendor that goes a few months without getting a slap won't tumble the whole edifice, but if this becomes a trend and you don't see Microsoft lawyers out in force demanding it stop then yes I think you have an abandonment argument; Windows becomes available for anyone to use in this context.

The other thought is that yes, the way the courts have acted previously suggests something like this might trigger an interoperability exemption that would have the effect that you could legally fill out the UEFI OS label with "Windows" if that's the only way to get your OS to boot. I think if the arguments are brought before a court, the judge is going to ask the Microsoft lawyer (since Microsoft are the only people with standing) why they're suing /you/ the poor innocent trying to achieve interoperability and thus driving market innovation, rather than the chip/board/PC maker who started the ball rolling by abusing Microsoft's trademark.

Two half-formed thoughts

Posted Nov 27, 2012 0:27 UTC (Tue) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link] (1 responses)

So because every mouse driver for DOS included a 'Copyright 1983 Microsoft' string for compatibility, Microsoft already lost the trademark on its own name? I don't think so.

Two half-formed thoughts

Posted Nov 27, 2012 11:44 UTC (Tue) by Fowl (subscriber, #65667) [Link]

That's much less visible. UI v protocols.


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