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Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 3:33 UTC (Sun) by hnasarat (guest, #86530)
Parent article: Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

I made an account here just to say that I'm deeply disappointed by this LWN post!
Really, this is some shitty sensationalist reporting. Jake, have you bothered to read and digest Frederico's article you would have not just copied the quote out of context.

If you had read and understood Frederico's post you might have thought to include the conclusion that Frederico made at the END of the post:

"It's not that you should completely ignore complainers. It's just that you should run a very, very low pass filter over what they say, and try to pick up the real root cause of their gripes. Maybe there is something that you can fix technically. Maybe they have identified a systemic problem intuitively but they don't have enough knowledge to really be able to verbalize it.

Haters gonna hate and spew shit, but remember that poop can be excellent fertilizer."

Also, the irony of this is just too perfect. Frederico takes time to comment against the latest "yellow journalism": he writes:

"And then there's yellow journalism for tech. The hater bloggers with a job. Some of the things they do:

They pick up the latest flamewar, however minor, and make a big deal out of it.

They summarize blog posts and quote things with not enough context. "$last_name said, 'blah blah blah'" is the only content in their columns."

I can't fathom how much of an idiot you are Jake. So not only did you take the quote out of context, you completely missed the point of Frederico's article. I'll summarize for you in a few sentences, because you're obviously too much of an idiot to read and understand a simple blog post yourself:
Frederico is saying that there's a lot of harsh criticism of software, especially GNOME 3 both from sensationalist journalists and irate users. Developers often ignore such cruel criticism, in an attempt to stay productive and not give up on their goals. Still, the hurtful criticism often does point to issues which should be fixed in the software.


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Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 3:49 UTC (Sun) by hnasarat (guest, #86530) [Link]

Also, the specific vitriol in question is the rotting in threes article.
ignorantGuru (the author of that article) ended up talking to Benjamin Otte, the lead developer behind GTK+ currently, about ignorantGuru, about the issue of themes breaking.

Otte explained the reasons behind this, and acknowledged not ideal communication and developers and encouraged more to get involved to steer the project in a way that they find desirable.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752#c9

As they say, put up, or hack up.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 12:43 UTC (Sun) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]

Not unreasonable imho. GTK does have very few resources, they're not exactly like Qt with hundreds of full-time developers. So yeah, if you don't like how things go, help out.

I don't think you can blame Ottens and others for wanting to fundamentally improve GTK and bring it to the level that it can finally do proper CSS theming - it's long overdue. That creates breakage for a while but the alternative is standstill, which is not a real option imho.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 13:41 UTC (Sun) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

You should reread the quotes by lead GNOME developers, really. For them it's not about improving GTK themeability via CSS, it's about politics geared to _reduce_ GTK themeability!

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 14:16 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Otte is a GTK+ developer. The rest are either designers, or involved in design and more importantly, not involved in GTK+.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 2:14 UTC (Mon) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

The designers are very much involved in GTK+ development. Their designs guide what features (widgets, themability, performance) we include, improve and drop in GTK. Their opinions on themability also influence what we think about it.
Of course, they don't have the final say and when we disagree, we try to find a solution that works for all of us.

In the context of themes, the GNOME project considers themes a bad thing, because you cannot advocate a unified design if you don't know how things are going to look in the end. This is not an uncommon view for desktop projects - neither OS X, iOS, Windows nor Android come with multiple designs.
For GTK itself, the users outside of GNOME (Windows, OS X, Unity, Sugar, XFCE) have so far made a strong point towards keeping themability a part of the toolkit.

But I'm saying it all the time, and am repeating it here: the GTK toolkit is defined by the people that take an interest and participate in developing it. And those people are currently almost 100% coming from the GNOME side. And as long as that is the case, expect GTK to be more and more the GNOME toolkit and less and less something else.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 12:46 UTC (Mon) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

"neither OS X, iOS, Windows nor Android come with multiple designs"

Android comes with loads of designs; most handset manufacturers use their own to 'differentiate' their products, widgets can be themed, and entire components like the launcher and the home screen can be replaced. To say nothing of entirely different UXes like the ones embedded in TVs, e-readers etc.

I'm pretty sure quite a lot of the look of (desktop) Windows can be changed around too - I've just had a look in Control Panel on a machine I have access to and there's a whole 'Appearance and Personalization' section with sub-entries including 'Change the theme'.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 14:26 UTC (Mon) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

"Handset manufacturer replaces most of the GUI" != "end user tweaks theme"

Ubuntu also replaced most of the UI of Gnome 3 with Unity, Microsoft changes the UI regularly to make their latest stuff look new.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 14:42 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Microsoft havn't changed the general template for their UI since windows '95. Even with the latest Windows 8, that basic template is still there apparently.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 13, 2012 16:40 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

"General template" is vague enough to mean nothing. The point discussed in this thread is GTK+ themeability, and Microsoft indeed changes the UI theme with each and every release of Windows.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 15:28 UTC (Mon) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

Maybe so, but as an end user I can replace these components too, straight from the Android Market/Play Store. And my default HTC setup has a 'personalize' button right on the main interface which allows me to tweak all sorts of stuff and install new skins.

Specifics aside, the general idea that it's impossible to design something useful if you don't know exactly how it's going to look is a nonsense.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 5:00 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

If only it were that simple. Unfortunately, the only dedicated Linux DE users is us, technical people. For statistical purposes, Linux DEs have no other users (bar Android), because these users come and go as they purchase new hardware, get sick of not being able to play games, run Windows apps etc. The blog entry clearly explains how we are systematically ignored - right from one Gnome developer's mouth - final words notwithstanding.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 13:08 UTC (Sun) by JMB (guest, #74439) [Link]

Sorry, but one of the things Ubuntu started was that many people
I know start installing Linux without having large knowledge about
Unix/Linux and without seeking technical people in their surroundings.
A community has grown which outnumbered soon all combined comunities
existing to that date. And now all distos get merits from that.
Unfortunately, pre-installed systems are not really available.
You must dig deep, mostly pay more and end up with a badly installed
system which you just freshly install to be able to do work.
The point is valid, as additionally the technical experts are those
who really care - they answer questions of friends who have problems,
they do work 100% on Linux systems (like me) without Windows/Max OS X
installed alongside.

And also the game argument is valid - for power gamers.
After playing games on computers for 25 years I am no longer impressed
by wasted hardware but by smart ideas (more of them were forgotten then
invented in the last decade).
Playing split screen with a friend sharing one keyboard (as in the
old DOS age) is much fun - much more than playing a network game.
At least for me and some people I know.
Wishes: big resolution (3840 x 2160 pixel?), fast response, good AI
and many possibilities to proof NI {natural intelligence:-}.

Which desktop? No big deal - a friend likes Unity - no problem -
KDE - nice - XFCE - fast - so what. The days of the best one is over.
It is more a social thing.
So ignoring bug reports, making statements that their users are so
`stupid' (I read it many times between the lines) - they don't know
their needs and should adopt the better workflow of a development
crew? LOL

But this attitude is much more harmful to the community than
M$ could be with all their FUD.
Why - because if you are not part, are told what to do and got explained
that you are stupid and must be an expert in all fields to rise your hand
one may install Windows (or Mac OS X - same thing) - they tell their
users what, how and how long to use ... OS, applications, services ...
and so many users are using it ... and industry ...
Of cause, looking behind the scenes neither Windows nor Mac OS X are
shiny - but are the Linux desktops of today?
Speaking only for myself: NO.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 12, 2012 4:18 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

> Which desktop? No big deal - a friend likes Unity - no problem -
> KDE - nice - XFCE - fast - so what. The days of the best one is over.

For some people, like myself, it was a big deal. For us Gnome was about stability. GNOME3 changed that, a put a lot of us to search for an alternative, something I personally _HATED_ doing. It's our problem, I suppose, because we expected from the GNOME devs more that what they were willing to give out. For that, I'm sorry.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 5:27 UTC (Sun) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

So you're calling other people idiots but aren't even capable of spelling the guy's name correctly? Pathetic.

on yellow journalism

Posted Nov 11, 2012 7:21 UTC (Sun) by pjm (subscriber, #2080) [Link]

If you'd ended this comment just before "I can't fathom how much of an idiot you are", then it would have been a welcome comment here, and (I expect) much more likely to be heeded.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 16:47 UTC (Sun) by Thanatopsis (guest, #14019) [Link]

>I can't fathom how much of an idiot you are Jake
....
>...you're obviously too much of an idiot to read....

Ad hominem attack right out of the gate. And some people wonder why others have issues with the attitudes of Gnome developers and fanbois.

Real mature there hnasarat.

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 17:08 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Technically that's not an ad hominem attack -- it's an attack with insults. The two are distinct and I am too pedantic for words. :)

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 11, 2012 17:59 UTC (Sun) by Thanatopsis (guest, #14019) [Link]

Pedanticism's good. :D

Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Posted Nov 13, 2012 11:36 UTC (Tue) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

You obviously mean pedantry? ;-)


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