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Hey Phoronix!

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 10, 2012 19:47 UTC (Sat) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
Parent article: Mena-Quintero: A Friday rant on Gnome 3, journalists, and power users

Hey Michael Larabel, just in case you're reading this: it's you he's talking about!


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Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 15:09 UTC (Sun) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

Michael is doing a fantastic job for the promotion of free software. He makes a positive impact beyond most. Your post is poisonous, and if you have it in you I really hope you reconsider your appearance on the net.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 15:42 UTC (Sun) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

Michael is doing a fantastic job for the promotion of free software. He makes a positive impact beyond most.
Sorry, but he doesn't. He does exactly what Federico criticizes in his blog: he picks up the latest flamewar, however minor, and makes a big deal out of it. He keeps publishing idiotic benchmarks, such as compiler benchmarks without optimization enabled, operating system benchmarks where the FreeBSD kernel is compiled with debugging information compiled in, and he writes "articles" based on hearsay. Not to mention his alcohol problem, which he seems to be so proud of that he writes about beer on every occasion.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 17:12 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Flamewar? It could just be a report of filesystem corruption on one person's machine and an in-progress debugging/characterization session, presented as if it was the be-all and end-all and the solution is in sight -- more than half a week before it actually was. :/

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 21:02 UTC (Sun) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

You are aware that he single handedly chased down the power regression on intel setups, right? This little detail that by itself is enough to halt the linux desktop like forever, while not a single developer seemed to care for months.

He reports regression as he finds them, and makes a living out of it. What did you contribute lately?

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 22:12 UTC (Sun) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link]

> He reports regression as he finds them

Hahaha! Are you sure he *reports* regressions?
I remember the story about this power regression in Linux. Michael Larabel published ton of articles (in order to maximize clics) and then he wrote this:

"I think I may have tracked down and will announce then in a couple of days. So, yes, I'll just put out the findings when it's to my maximum ad-revenue advantage".

Disgusting.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 22:27 UTC (Sun) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

Yes, I am sure he reports regressions. Chasing it down must have been a time consuming task, and he is arguably the most contributing journalist for GNU/Linux on earth. I have no idea how he found time to chase it down while still churning out continuous updates on what is now the established goto place for anybody who cares about graphics on linux, and the goto place for anybody who knows shit about benchmarking. You should learn to show appreciation when people work 24/7 for years to improve your life, and does it more effectively than most.

I am sick and tired of this type of bashing against the few that really contribute big-time.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 11, 2012 22:49 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I found out that this was related to my patch after someone pointed me at the story. He never reported the issue to me.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 7:18 UTC (Mon) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

He makes a living from the clicks, not from writing e-mails. You did get the message didn't you? So what exactly do you complain about, that he should have shown courtesy? That he should have been more polite? Do you find your post here in this heated sub-thread any more polite? Pointing fingers is a risky sport, at least three of them tend to point back to one self.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 7:29 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

He didn't report the issue. I'm not complaining, merely pointing out a fact.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 8:41 UTC (Mon) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

Hm, I see, there is a play of words with respect to reports. With reports, I obviously meant reporting on the web-site, which is where he makes a living. I think we all should be glad he doesn't spend substantial amounts of time on bug trackers. I do on the other hand, but then again I have an employer paying me, and it is part of my core activity as well as my hobby. Big difference.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 11:28 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Ah. So, he finds problems and makes click-money out of them, but doesn't report them to the actual maintainers to be fixed (or even upstream distro bugtrackers) the way everyone else does? He is *special* and all maintainers of everything must check *his* site in case he's started yelling about a bug in their code? (Or about something that isn't a bug -- and having seen the quality of his compiler benchmarks I'd wager that that applies to most of them).

Thanks, but no thanks.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 13:54 UTC (Mon) by JMB (guest, #74439) [Link]

Well, not just on topic, but an interesting aspect.
Both arguments are valid.
As experienced admin I know how to write bug reports or deal
with big laboratories to get patches/fixes.
Being paid for it is not only nice because you are not annoyed
you have to spend hours looking for familiar problems and than
some to put data together which may give a hint to the problem -
but also for the contracts. Your bug report _will_ be seen and
worked on as money was paid - and saying a site of x00 or even
x000 servers has a problem, you get feedback in hours - and are
obliged to respond in that time. This is nice.
Well, going to other development cicles is another game - you are
a begger - asking politely - and may get answers like "works as
designed" or "I introduced the regression, but the bug is in the
package of another maintainer, so blame him" - and writing rants
is more efficient than bug reporting then. :(
These are two different worlds - and human beings are involved -
many things can be understood if viewed from a little distance.
I am just angry if people and/or their opinions are neglected.
So yes, I understand people reporting bugs in public while not
writing a bug report - and as the non technical people grow in
numbers distributions should think about a way to collect problems
via E-Mail and may deal more efficiently/automatically with upstream.
Otherwise feedback is too expensive for users.
I have 2 things myself to report ... and still haven't done it
(both will not be changed fast if at all as I assume form my
experience).
Such work is harder than a hundred comments on LWN. ;-)

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 11:25 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

he is arguably the most contributing journalist for GNU/Linux on earth.
No, I'm sorry, Jon Corbet of this parish wins that hands down (for his assistance in the BKL removal even if he'd done nothing else). Assuming you define Jon as a journalist rather than as a hacker who writes a trade press publication, that is.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 12:48 UTC (Mon) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

I was specifically thinking about the journalistic part, and there Jon is nowhere close. That said, I really love Jon's journalistic work, it is top notch.

Concerning the BKL contribution, you should not underestimate the value of Michael's contributions in form of PTS and regression testing. It may be hard to measure, but I am pretty sure it is absolutely necessary to get a competitive desktop. Vendors do pay attention.

Now I suggest you get a grip on yourself. You are wasting my time and your time. Time that otherwise could be used to bring free software forward. Infighting is destructive, and this subthread is starting to look like the prime example of the peanut gallery. I am ashamed to see how popular it is among us to do mockery against a young man who has given us so much. He deserves our encouragement, he certainly does not deserve the peanut gallery this subthread has degraded to.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 20:11 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

I was specifically thinking about the journalistic part, and there Jon is nowhere close.
You obviously don't have the faintest idea what good journalism looks like.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 22:33 UTC (Mon) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

You could try to count referrals from linux.com if you like numbers. I believe I have a very good idea of what good journalism is, and Michael produces tons of it. With the amount of material he covers there is bound to be variable quality, so there will always be something for petty souls to pick on.

Now please spread your poison somewhere else, my stomach hurts from seeing your posts.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 12, 2012 23:27 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

You could try to count referrals from linux.com if you like numbers.

Since when is the number of referrals from linux.com an indicator for quality journalism?

I believe I have a very good idea of what good journalism is

So what are your criteria for good journalism? Meaningless and/or misleading benchmarks (compiler benchmarks without optimization enabled, OS benchmarks with a FreeBSD kernel with debug info compiled in, utterly meaningless compositor comparisons (see the kwin developer's blog entry about that))? Continuous alcohol propaganda? Articles with barely any content at all (like this one, who's content boils down to "Iain Buclaw sent an email to the gcc-patches list")? Dubious language (yes, calling things "crap" and "mess" is extremely dubious for a journalist)? Dozens of articles where the only news is that there is no news?

I'm sorry to bring this to you, but no, that's not good journalism.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 13, 2012 0:12 UTC (Tue) by michaellarabel (guest, #87807) [Link]

"compiler benchmarks without optimization enabled"

Compiler flags are shown on the benchmark results themselves. Generally, the compiler flags used during testing are whatever the default flags that are set by the upstream program under test. The Phoronix benchmark philosophy is all about real-world, reproducible tests -- such as if most users obtaining the package manually are just doing ./configure; make; make install. The real-world tests are also targeted at end-users; I think this is where some of the disconnect comes in over testing methodology as it tries to be representative for a majority of the Linux end-users. This is also why Ubuntu is mostly used with Phoronix tests... There are, of course, also Phoronix benchmarks that look specifically at compiler tuning with different optimization levels, CPU targets, etc.

"a FreeBSD kernel with debug info compiled in"

This was one or two articles -- out of 2,000+ articles and 6,000+ news posts I've written -- quite a while ago when the FreeBSD camp didn't make clear all of the debugging options they had enabled within their kernel.

What Martin didn't know at the time of his blog posting that it was one of several articles being written on the subject... You can find many other window manager / DE benchmarks on Phoronix with a variety of GPUs/drivers/systems testing the "out of the box" performance.

I'm not saying that mistakes don't happen, as they obviously do when covering many different areas and single-handedly writing thousands of articles while also engaging in other full-time projects that consume 100+ hours total per week. And for those who get all bent out of shape over the occasional beer photo or "alcohol propaganda", it's completely silly, especially when those photos are used to subtly hint ('leak') at future details about a given product/topic if you read enough into the beer selected, photo details, etc.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 15, 2012 17:02 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Well, at least Michael's registered an account on LWN now. (First post ever, very high-numbered, thus almost certainly a new registration.)

Hey world

Posted Nov 13, 2012 16:55 UTC (Tue) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

Hm, I was planning to ignore you as a troll since I have like a dozen open projects I need to attend to. But your flame-bait makes it much more interesting to spend hours here. Too bad the forum function here is crap compared to, e.g., phoronix, it makes long threads a nightmare to follow. But who am I to complain, after all, you are here, and that makes it all worth it. Let us take it from the top.

>Since when is the number of referrals from linux.com an indicator for quality journalism?

You are really hilarious, did you know that? Linux.com picks up the best stories around the net, and you dismiss that evidence because you believe they are not able to spot good journalism when they see it. But you on the other hand, you really know how to judge, right? Do you even believe yourself?

>compiler benchmarks without optimization enabled

Hm, phoronix is the only site on earth that benches compiler optimizations. It is an established reference for comparing clang and gcc (and any other compiler for that matter), e.g., check out the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang (ooops, sorry, forgot that you do not recognize any such reference as evidence of anything). The only time anybody got close was about five years ago following some heated discussion on aceshardware, where some windows oriented sites followed up by comparing different compilers on Intel and AMD hardware. Maybe you find the SPEC submissions more informative, is that it? I am grasping for straws here you see. Really twisting my brain to see if there is anything in yours, so please help me out.

>meaningless compositor comparisons (see the kwin developer's blog entry about that))?

Hm, you didn't catch that those "meaningless benchmarks" was necessary to uncover performance issues in Unity, which again is rather critical for the forthcoming Steam on linux? Maybe Martin didn't get that either, and thought there was free hunting season on journalists (as if there is a plethora of journalists covering free software). KDE has had it's performance issues, and I am pretty sure I can dig out cases where the compositor is an important part of the picture. Just days ago I had to show a colleague of mine how to turn off desktop effects in KDE on Red Hat 6 to get decent 3D performance, yes we are talking about the people paying for all that beautiful work produced at Red Hat (and where do you think your beloved OS would be without it?). Martin should be grateful somebody want to benchmark his software. You really enjoy digging out flames in the community trying to pitch us up against each other, don't you? Do you find it entertaining? Have you ever considered the quality of the content you publish here?

>Continuous alcohol propaganda?

Are you telling me that you don't enjoy an occasional beer? Maybe you got provoked by Michael offering free beer to linux-supporters? Or maybe you simply feel left out because you haven't had the opportunity to share a couple of beers with fellow members of the community? In any case you have my deepest sympathy. If you like I can give you advice on how to handle your situation. I believe there are a number of effective solutions depending on your condition. Hang on a minute, I have had a hard day at work and I could really use a stiff drink now... Ah back again. There are few things like an Islay single malt. My absolute favourite is Lagavulin, distillers edition. Sure you don't want one? OK, your choice.

>Dubious language (yes, calling things "crap" and "mess" is extremely dubious for a journalist)?

Indeed it is, I love it. It really is refreshing, don't you agree? (the smell of Lagavulin is really unique, just a tiny drop of water in it is perfect, ah)

>Dozens of articles where the only news is that there is no news?

Eh, I only had one glass of whisky, but my eye sight must be failing. The links you gave had interesting updates on the state of various open projects, none of which I was aware of until I read the articles at phoronix. Are you really sure you haven't been drinking? Ah, I get it, you have been smoking some heavy shit. Let me give you a piece of friendly advice, stay off the pot, stick to the alcohol. Lemmy and Jim Morrison cannot both be wrong. Alcohol is the king of drugs.

Hey world

Posted Nov 13, 2012 17:25 UTC (Tue) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

You're not going to convince me with personal attacks. Here's a quote from Torvalds:
Anyway, it's clearly not worth discussing this with you. I've tried. I give up. Happily, I don't _need_ to convince you.

Hey world

Posted Nov 13, 2012 17:38 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

...and since nobody seems likely to convince anybody else, perhaps this is a good place to conclude this particular subthread?

Thanks.

Hey Phoronix!

Posted Nov 15, 2012 16:59 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Now I suggest you get a grip on yourself. You are wasting my time and your time. Time that otherwise could be used to bring free software forward. Infighting is destructive, and this subthread is starting to look like the prime example of the peanut gallery.
Where the heck did this come from? "I disagree with you, so you should shut up"? Great argumentative technique. That'll convince me.


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