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Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 19:07 UTC (Wed) by mjh (guest, #87431)
Parent article: Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

The mere fact that there's an /18/ part series tells me all I need to know about systemd. Stop trying to help, Lennart.


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Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 19:18 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

My "UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook" is 1300 pages long. That tells me all I need to know about Linux. Stop trying to help, kernel developers! My DOS manual was just 6 pages!

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 22:04 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

So you prefer it when developers just dump a bunch of code out there and don't bother to document it? I actually like it when a developer bothers to explain what their code does and how to use it.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 22:35 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Let me get this straight Lennart's problem is being too communicative?

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 22:57 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

No, the problem is in creating a new Init replacement that is so complex that it needs an 18 part explanation of how it works and how it should be used.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 23:30 UTC (Wed) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link]

If one documented how to get the same capabilities with the old system it would be as bad or worse.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 24, 2012 23:46 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I reiterate my comment. The Unix administration book ( http://admin.com ) has more than 100 pages dedicated to daemons, booting, services and logging.

Should we stop doing all this unix-y crap and return to clean and pure world of AUTOEXEC.BAT and config.sys?

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 11:21 UTC (Thu) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

Because discussions of all aspects of multiple implementations of an entire operating system is comparable to one single component which used to be simple?

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 12:15 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

From a ISV view, all the different quirks and incompatibilities with distro specific additions to sysv were hardly simple. It was convoluted and poorly documented. systemd is a huge step up.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 15:59 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Used to be simple? LOL.

SysV scripts were never simple. They are almost always brittle and unreliable pieces of crap. Especially cross-distribution scripts (LSB? Ha!).

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 18:26 UTC (Thu) by akeane (guest, #85436) [Link]

>No, the problem is in creating a new Init replacement that is so complex that it needs an 18 part explanation of how it works and how it should be used.

Well spoken Mr Lang!

To be fair though, I do like the Roman numerals, it gives a nice classical feel to the whole proceedings!

akeane@superfrog-dev: man XVIII systemd
No manual entry for XVIII
No manual entry for systemd
akeane@superfrog-dev: Ah, man; echo $?
I pity the fool who uses systemd, and keep your new fangled Init "systems" AWAY from MR T's van and BINS!

akeane@superfrog-dev: :-(

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 26, 2012 21:39 UTC (Fri) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link]

This criticism is such empty nonsense. It's 18 blog posts, not 18 academic papers. They're very well written, illustrated with example outputs, etc. etc.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 18:09 UTC (Thu) by akeane (guest, #85436) [Link]

>Let me get this straight Lennart's problem is being too communicative?

No, just writing "too much" code.

Where "too much" is #defined as any...

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 0:16 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Michael Kerrisk's _The Linux Programming Interface_ is 1506 pages long. The Linux API is clearly far too complicated and should be replaced with something with, uh, less documentation. Since 'the less documentation the better' is the right way to judge any program.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 25, 2012 15:39 UTC (Thu) by Kit (guest, #55925) [Link]

Just quickly jumping between a few, it doesn't look like any of them are all that long. It's "18-parts" because it looks like each one is just covering a single feature (or maybe feature family). Claiming that's too much seems rather absurd to me... since when was documenting something a BAD thing?

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 26, 2012 9:20 UTC (Fri) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

I guess the optimal outcome would be an init system with documentation that reads:

"Install. It works."

I'd also like every CPU to have a DWIM instruction.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 26, 2012 21:10 UTC (Fri) by intgr (subscriber, #39733) [Link]

> "Install. It works."

I believe systemd actually comes the closest of all init systems. Many upstream packages already ship systemd units -- just "make install" and possibly "systemctl enable foo" required. Compared to SysV where your distro's package maintainer duplicated a shell script for each package, and assigned a "priority number" on an arbitrary scale to order service startup.

It also replaces several other pieces that had to be manually configured before. As the article mentiones, systemd services share CPU time equally by default, not depending on the number of processes they have like before.

And many more I can think of: Most systemd users probably don't even realize that it includes a readahead tool for speeding up system startup. It works without any hacks and configuration within LXC/namespace containers. If you want a serial console, you only need to configure it in one place (on the kernel command line). Instead of distros supplying acpid and a maintainer-written script for power button events, systemd has a simple built-in default policy -- so shutting down VMs from the host works out of the box. And many more that I can't remember right now.

So, many things that seem like duct-taped together in other systems (usually by distro package maintainers), or things that required unnecessary amounts of fiddling and configuration -- now systemd does The Right Thing using a sensible built-in policy and provides straightforward configuration options.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Nov 2, 2012 14:53 UTC (Fri) by knobunc (subscriber, #4678) [Link]

My only complaint with systemd is that I can't work out how to tell it to unmount and unlock a filesystem so I can fsck it.

I have an external SATA drive that I use for backups. Occasionally I have need to do:
> umount /backup
> e2fsck /dev/sde1

However, the fsck fails because systemd has locked the device.

I have tried systemd stop of various unit names, but have never found the right one to make systemd not hold a lock on the device.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Nov 2, 2012 15:22 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

lsof might be your friend here to identify what is touching the device.

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Nov 2, 2012 15:45 UTC (Fri) by knobunc (subscriber, #4678) [Link]

It did. It is process 1 (i.e. systemd). That's why I need to tell systemd to release it...

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Nov 2, 2012 16:45 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

file a bug report

Poettering: systemd for Administrators, Part XVIII (controllers)

Posted Oct 28, 2012 16:19 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I'd also like every CPU to have a DWIM instruction.
I protest on the entirely self-serving basis that this would leave half of us here out of a job. :)


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