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Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 7:03 UTC (Wed) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126)
In reply to: Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha by clumens
Parent article: Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

How will you feel if you spend time to test the pre-release versions and you found a feature missing and the anaconda team dismissed it as 'not a bug or wontfix' and moved ahead ignoring your bug reports?

F18 features:
There is not going to be a text install.
There is no packages customization during install.
You have to go back in the anaconda menu after you choose an option, sounds retarded.
The installer doesnt confirm before it wipes your hard disk.
The network scripts are not ready yet.
The time zone bugs are not fixed yet.
One can install the operating system without a root password.

The release team says its alpha ready. How did fedora fall to these levels?


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Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 14:26 UTC (Wed) by clumens (subscriber, #28542) [Link]

There will always be things people file that will end up as NOTABUG or WONTFIX. However, there will always be many more things people file that will be genuine bugs. Most of these will get fixed, some of them won't. Unreported bugs will never be fixed unless someone else is lucky enough to hit the same thing.

> There is not going to be a text install.

Incorrect.

> There is no packages customization during install.

Correct, but this has been explained at length elsewhere.

> You have to go back in the anaconda menu after you choose an option, sounds retarded.

Sounds like you've not tried it. The strings are a bit misleading on the Alpha, but that's fixed up afterwards. The work flow here should be much more streamlined, especially for people who only need to deal with a subset of the pages.

> The installer doesnt confirm before it wipes your hard disk.

Yeah, that's filed.

> The network scripts are not ready yet.

What do you mean? Low information statements like this mean we have nothing to go on for fixing.

> The time zone bugs are not fixed yet.

Again, what do you mean?

> One can install the operating system without a root password.

The plan here was that the first user would be set up as the "admin" via sudo and consolekit and the like, but the OS as a whole is just really not ready for this. So yes there are some corner cases where you can end up without a root password, but again that is being worked on.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 15:57 UTC (Wed) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link]

I think I didn't make myself clear.
As you said the whole thing was dicussed elsewhere when you replied to me in your second answer and I have the same answer to you as well. I will point you to the on-going thread on fedoraforum.org where no one from anaconda cared to visit.
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?p=1603763#po...

You are the one who have posted that there wont be a text mode first, but now I learn that the status has been changed now.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewInstallerUI#Re...
I stand corrected.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 15:59 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Fedoraforum.org isn't an official support channel - should the Anaconda developers be reading Phoronix as well?

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 16:52 UTC (Wed) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link]

Yea, I know fedoraforum.org is not supported. But if you cared enough to see what users are experiencing with your work, you would have better feedback. Is that so hard ?

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 16:57 UTC (Wed) by krakensden (subscriber, #72039) [Link]

It's honestly an important point- there's a pretty ugly divide in the Linux desktop community between the great unwashed in the forums, and the developers on mailing lists.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:24 UTC (Wed) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

The solution is to have an official forum -- and then make the forum send notifications over rss, irc bots and email to the developers. That's what made the Krita forums usable for me as a developer, who doesn't have time to struggle with the forum software itself to keep up with postings, and the result is happy users, informed developers and lots of cool images in the gallery.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:30 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

notifications that require that the developer login to the forum and see what's new don't scale.

having the forms gate to mailing lists so that the developer can see the messages and respond directly works _much_ better.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:54 UTC (Wed) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

I don't know whether it would scale for others or not. It scales for me, but then, the krita forums remember my login, and there are only some dozen posts a day, right now. And I don't feel compelled to answer every forum post that passed by on irc. But in general, irc and rss notifications work for me. A mailing list gateway would be even better, but I don't have that. Just visiting the forum to check what's new -- no, that wouldn't work at all.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 17:04 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I'm not sure how you're imagining this would work. There's any number of places that people could be talking about their experiences. Should the developers be checking all of them?

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 17:15 UTC (Wed) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link]

Well, if you have a forum which dicusses your work, its doesn't sound good if you are not willing to check it. You are replying at lwn.net, would it hurt if you checked fedoraforum?

Ubuntu, Archlinux, FreeBSD have their forums, devs listen and discuss what users have say about the work. Its not like they don't have a ML of their own.

Look how gnome 3.6 is going, they have killed nautilus in 3.6. The elite gnome devs don't listen to users and people make forks like nemo, cinnamon etc.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 17:20 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

There are lots of forums that discuss my work. I can't follow all of them. But I'm also not an Anaconda developer.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 17:24 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Forums are great for users. Really awful for developers. It is really incredibly inefficient for any developer to sort through forum threads to provide answers. Everybody who has tried this including myself find it far more efficient and productive to focus ourselves to bugzilla and developer mailing list. This is unfortunate but just the reality of the situation. Fedoraforum.org has recognized this and has a rather prominent notice in the footer and as a stick post that it is only meant to be a end user forum.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:07 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

The answer to this is that we need for more forums to be tied in to mailing lists.

Right now there is a huge divide between the two, and while forums are great for quick fire-and-forget questions from users, they are horrible for anyone to try and follow in volume.

Baen Books http://bar.baen.com (registration required, but free) has configured FUDForum to tie in to both NNTP and e-mail, with the same content appearing in all three places.

Postgres has a presence on nabble where you can view the mailing lists as if they were web forums

http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/PostgreSQL-f18437...
http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/

the Baen approach is useing all free software (FUDforum, INN, Mailman with light customization).

The Postgres approach is using a closed-but-free hosting service

We really need for more organizations to take this sort of approach (and for more forum software to support it)

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:24 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

No, that works terribly. Forum and mailing list formatting and etiquette are entirely different and merging them together works badly - can you imagine how irritating mailing list threads consisting entirely of "bump" messages would be? Because I can, having been there.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:31 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

"bump" messages are a symptom of the forum not working because the needed people aren't reading it.

as for formatting and etiquette being entirely different, that depends on the mailing list and forums involved. In some cases they are, in other cases they are similar enough to live together.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:44 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

No, they're a symptom of the different UI in forums. Mailing lists are generally presented as a set of threads with any unread posts being highlighted. Forums are generally presented as the set of recently modified threads without any immediate visibility as to the posts within them. If you post to a forum there's a good chance that people will miss your post entirely simply because they're not checking the forum frequently enough. Different UI results in different cultural norms, and trying to merge the two leads to disasters.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:14 UTC (Wed) by rleigh (guest, #14622) [Link]

What I think I would like here is forum software which is a front-end to NNTP, so that the fora are in reality usenet groups, and can be efficiently accessed with a usenet reader, or via the "friendly" web front-end. This would, I think, provide the best of both worlds, both in terms of ease of access for users, and speedy for developers in keeping up to date with threads in all groups.

Google suggests that such things do exist, but I haven't seen one in practice personally.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:23 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

FUDForum can do this. This is what Baen uses for http://bar.baen.com

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 20, 2012 4:11 UTC (Thu) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]

Most forums (all I frequent) have the "Go to first post since I was here last" functionality.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:45 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

"bump" messages are a symptom of the forum not working because the needed people aren't reading it.

Or just of the combination "busy forum" + "needed people not having the same diurnal-rhythm distribution as the user base" + "impatient users".

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:06 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

Ok, change my statement to "aren't reading it frequently enough"

I still say it's a symptom of a problem, and if you have a lot of people bumping threads to fight for priority on the first page, you really need to figure out a better way to structure your forum.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:08 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Sure, forums will work when gated to mailing lists if people are using the forum as if they were using a mailing list. But, typically, they're not and so they won't.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:13 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

I'm curious what ways you see people using forums that are incompatible with mailing lists?

yes, sometimes there are different norms (top posting vs bottom posting, HTML vs plain text, etc), but those variations exist between different mailing lists and between different forums as well, they aren't inherent to the message tool.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:17 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The Ubuntu mailing lists were bidirectionally gated to the forums for a while. Feel free to go back and see how well that worked. A typical forum is culturally different to a typical mailing list, and you're not going to force either existing population into the cultural norms of the other.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:27 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

given that I know of one place where it is working, I disagree with the attitude that it's impossible.

There is enough variation in culture from mailing list to mailing list, and for forum to forum that I really question if they are so fundamentally incompatible (especially when nobody will bother to say what the differences are, just that they are so different that they can never get along)

I am not saying that there isn't going to be a need for some accommodation, but as noted elsewhere, if this makes it possible for the developers to participate in the forums where they didn't before, the value of getting a real response can overwhelm any inconvenience and friction from the different cultures.


Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 21:29 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

You know of one place where it works, in an entirely different type of community. I know of more than one place where it has failed, in almost identical communities. Which anecdote do you think is more relevant here?

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 22:03 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

when you say "it can't possibly work", all it takes is one example of it working to prove you wrong.

At that point the interesting discussion is around why it works in some situations and not in others, but as long as there's just a flat statement of "it can't work" that discussion is not yet taking place.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 23:25 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

"It can work in this entirely different context" is not useful information. "It has failed when it has been attempted in this context" is useful information. And while yes, we could have some sort of academic discussion as to why these communities are different, it would be entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 23:36 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

why are the contexts different? You are insisting that all the cases that you care about are different, but I don't see any fundamental reason for them being different.

Just because something didn't work well at some point in the past for some group of people doesn't make that thing a bad idea for that reason alone.

in both cases you have a small group of "important" people (developers for opensource stuff, authors for Baen) and a very large group of less "important" or less "clueful" people (users for opensource stuff, readers for Baen)

In both cases the less important people can help each other and get value from interacting with each other.

In both cases the value of a forum increases drastically if the "important" people interact with it, but web forums are horribly inefficient ways for people to keep up with everything.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 23:58 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

If you can't tell the difference between a community made up of science fiction enthusiasts who want to talk about books and one made up of random computer users who want to talk about why their computer doesn't work, I don't think there's any point in trying to discuss it.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 20, 2012 23:57 UTC (Thu) by zlynx (subscriber, #2285) [Link]

I guess I'm another person who doesn't see the big difference you seem to see.

Authors : Readers
Developers : Users

Of course it isn't exactly the same thing but it is quite similar in many ways.

Announcing the release of Fedora 18 Alpha

Posted Sep 19, 2012 19:58 UTC (Wed) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

Well, you wouldn't want to mix your regular mailing list with forum posts. But a separate mailing list with forum messages where you can answer new posts from your mailer, that should work pretty well.

In my experience, the OMG THE DEVELOPER ANSWERED MY POST AND HE IS NICE AND HUMAN reaction you get when answering a forum question totally overshadows any little etiquette differences there might be.


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