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McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

GNOME developer William Jon McCann has posted a lengthy article on recent work done with the Nautilus file manager and where that utility is going. "Nautilus was a bit of black sheep among the GNOME 3 core applications. It had a design that grew organically over many years and didn’t really seem to fit in any more. In bringing it back up to par we now have things like a much improved and space efficient maximized window state, a more consistent menu layout and behavior, more consistent use of icons, and a more GNOME 3 style pathbar and toolbar."
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McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 2, 2012 21:28 UTC (Thu) by mmonaco (subscriber, #84041) [Link]

I really hope this push doesn't break Nautilus for fallback mode.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:45 UTC (Fri) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

One of the things I thought was that Fallback mode was only a temporary "fix" for dealing with old hardware. A longer term fix would be to have clutter talk some sort of 2d mode for older hardware.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:51 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

That's already the case, actually. You don't need to have 3D hardware acceleration any more to run Gnome Shell:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-Novem...

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:43 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

There are still cases where it breaks down. Some hardware might be good enough for the basic check, but it fails later on. Also some hardware might be missing just one function, resulting in slow software rendering while it could be much faster.

Currently the software rendering would render everything using software. Ideally that would only use software for the stuff that is not supported. Apparently that is quite difficult.

The software rendering also doesn't work under some architectures (arm + s390 IIRC). Furthermore, OpenBSD mentioned they need some work as well to support software rendering (should be ready around GNOME 3.6.0 release).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 15:30 UTC (Sat) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link]

I think software rendering is closer to the definition of fallback mode. The current "fallback mode" represents an experience closer to GNOME 2. So to me, there are three versions of GNOME 3:

- Hardware rendered
- Software rendered
- Classic mode

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 2:15 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> There are still cases where it breaks down.

True. In fact, my xrdp sessions cannot run Gnome Shell at all (runs Xvnc in the back, really).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:52 UTC (Fri) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

I just installed Mate and deleted most of Gnome 3 and Xfce. It feels *so good*. On my work machine I had been delaying various upgrades because their dependencies would have switched me from 2 to 3. I just switched it over to Mate and it feels great. (I really tried to like Xfce; sorry, xfcers.)

The only tricky bit was getting it and FF to obey Emacs edit key bindings. Hand-editing .mateconf files didn't work, but

  mateconftool-2 -s /desktop/mate/interface/gtk_key_theme -t string Emacs
did.

That said, I never used Nautilus, and don't expect to use Caja much either. Thus, also:

  mateconftool-2 -s /apps/caja/preferences/show_desktop -t bool false
I don't know how iceweasel knows whether to use Mate or Gnome preferences.

It's pretty silly to have to do this sort of thing.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:16 UTC (Fri) by Frej (subscriber, #4165) [Link]

My desktop made me feel purple this morning. Might be the background. Yesterday was pretty oceanic.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 2, 2012 22:59 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I'm running pre-release Ubuntu 12.10 with the new Nautilus. I don't use it much but every time I open my only reaction is "WTF?".

For example, I still haven't figured out the keyboard shortcut to go to the parent directory - backspace doesn't work anymore. There are no menus with "Go Up" entry so there's no way to discover it anymore.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 2, 2012 23:10 UTC (Thu) by mordae (subscriber, #54701) [Link]

crshbndct says:
I just want to say that these changes look good. Ignore the non-contructive criticism. Gnome bashing has become popular amongst the GNU/Linux community, and yet, everyone who forces themself to use it for a few weeks falls in love. Its inevitable.
Cyberax, in the light of your insight, this comment under the original article really made my day. I love gnome shell. Apart from that, are they kidding? I mean, contacts still don't work with dark themes (they even have the css patch in the bugzilla, but nobody cared to apply it). Evolution UI is terrible. Empathy support for chats is ridiculously bad. GS still have a ton of bugs. But the focus of GNOME devs? Breaking Nautilus.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 2, 2012 23:49 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> Evolution UI is terrible.

Yeah, maybe (although I find it OK after using it for many, many years now).

One thing cannot be disputed though. It is the most complete (in the enterprise sense) mail client for Gnome. It supports 3 types of native Exchange connectivity (apart from the usual open protocols), it can edit LDAP contacts etc. Once it gets completely ported to WebKit (which is under way), it will also handle dreaded HTML mail much better.

I also found Red Hat folks in charge of its maintenance very responsive (as part of Fedora). As long as you give them a backtrace (and they are very helpful in telling folks how), they will fix it.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 1:42 UTC (Fri) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

The people still left around Gnome, which seems to have seen extensive flight by those with sanity, still claim from the highest pulpit that "less is more." No. Less in this case is -- quite simply -- less. As to the claim that those that stick with it love it -- that's quite a selection effect! It's that recipe which has Gnome well on its way to losing the great majority of its users -- while proclaiming the genius of the 5% who remain.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 2:07 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Well thanks. I always knew I was a genius, but it's great to get external confirmation of it.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:15 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

I am not a genius.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 12:43 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

As to the claim that those that stick with it love it -- that's quite a selection effect!
Perhaps a test here to see if a claim of some change in software is influenced by this effect would be to look at the claim and see if it would work just as well if the claim were changed to 'our new user interface whips users, tears at them with metal teeth, and drips acid on their skins'.

(Tests show that everyone who sticks with our new torture-users user interface loves it! In fact many of them are asking for more such features! You stick-in-the-muds who are protesting just hate change.)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 19:30 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Beat me! Whip me! Make me use GNOME!

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 21:16 UTC (Sat) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

Or just install Cinnamon! in one of my machines I have to keep F15 for some time, but F16 and above can easily enjoy some extra Cinnamon topping.

Sent from my shiny but yet useful Cinnamon Fedora!

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 3:03 UTC (Sun) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

Yes, Cinnamon is a wonderful effort -- already packaged for Debian as well but the packages are not ready for the archive just yet. Longer-term, it's likely to survive Mate unless Gnome fully implodes and Mate becomes the dominant fork (the way the Gnomes are going, this is no longer out of the question). I encourage people to try it. I'm not yet sure what my desktop on next major upgrade will be, but I'm definitely leaning towards Cinnamon.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 9:27 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I'm on XFCE right now. It mostly works for me, although it does have many shortcomings.

I'll probably try Cinnamon in a year or so, once it matures up a bit more. I mostly like the new GTK3 libraries and L&F, it's just the rest of the GNOME that I hate.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 1:56 UTC (Fri) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

You could always install thunar. I've been using it for a while, and it's now my favorite file browser. And yes, it has the backspace shortcut.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:02 UTC (Fri) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

The shortcut you are looking for should be Alt+Up.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:15 UTC (Fri) by cwillu (guest, #67268) [Link]

An awkward key combo to hit with one hand (two regular sized keys), compared to a single nice fat key on most keyboard.

The existence of a new "preferred" shortcut is not sufficient reason to remove the old, especially when balanced against the old being in common use across multiple operating systems for decades.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:24 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Does not work. Probably a bug somewhere, but I just don't care anymore.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 10:25 UTC (Fri) by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963) [Link]

You should probably not be using development software if bugs annoy you so much and you have no desire to even report them. For instance, the Backspace key not working could be just a bug.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:50 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I'm OK with reporting and testing bugs. I file lots of stuff.

However, I'm definitely not OK anymore with GNOME's brain-missing designers. Lack of backspace key navigation was definitely NOT a bug, but a design decision.

BTW, my comment to the blog post asking about this behavior has been moderated. That's why there are so many positive reactions in the comments and almost no negative ones.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:16 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

It is a bug. Bitching about unstable versions of software is a bit... telling.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:19 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Is it really a bug or a design feature? Cause I can't tell it with GNOME anymore.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 8:27 UTC (Sat) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

report a bug, if it gets closed with "works as intended", then it's working as intended.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 14:48 UTC (Mon) by jpnp (subscriber, #63341) [Link]

I'm quite happy to spend the effort reporting a bug which affects me, so that it may be fixed in future versions where I benefit; I'm even happy to report bugs I notice which don't actually affect my use, or where I found a workaround, so that others can benefit, but I find it a bit ludicrous to suggestion opening bugs for removed functionality as a means of communication with the designers, who have made changes but not publicly described them such that users can't tell whether their useful functionality was designed away "for their own good", or removed accidentally in the cross fire.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 14:02 UTC (Fri) by seyman (subscriber, #1172) [Link]

It appears to be Alt + Home (this is what works on Fedora 17).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:48 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I briefly installed Nautilus back and alt+home works.

That's another WTF moment. I have _no_ idea how they came up with this shortcut: backspace is traditional, alt-left is used by browser and is fairly logical, alt-up is OK and intuitive. WTH alt+home means?

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:55 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

One would perhaps expect Alt-Home to go the home directory...

And in fact, in both Firefox, Chrome and Internet Explorer it sends you to the home page.

If in Nautilus it sends you to the parent directory, well... one has to recognize that it takes some real talent to get EVERYTHING wrong without fail (and perhaps without even trying!).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:17 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

You're talking about unstable versions of a software. Loads of changes were made. Expecting one unstable version to perfectly reflect the idea of designers is a pretty odd.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 14, 2012 12:10 UTC (Tue) by MortenSickel (subscriber, #3238) [Link]

Bad shortcut, need both hands on keyboards with a altgr key on the right side of the space bar...

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:12 UTC (Fri) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

I don't remember which user replied to Otte that actually there's a metric to say if Gnome 3 is worse than Gnome 2 or not, and that'd be the number of "WTF???"s and "WTH were they thinking?!?"s per minute any time they introduce the latest news in Gnome Shell land ... guess you've just validated that theory and provided new data to that purpose ;)

But seriously, I'm at a loss here, can't really see the purpose of removing not usable, but BASIC features like both the "go up" button and the corresponding shortcut key. Adding an interesting feature like "make a folder out of these items" (btw, how discoverable is that? not really, eh? guess it will be removed in the next version of Nautilus!) doesn't make up for that; and not all of them are useful or interesting: search when you type instead of selecting items? Ewwww!

I know it is crazy, but sometimes I think that Gnome 3 is actually an exercise in evil psychology, seeing how far you can go with your users before they break down and have psychotic reactions ... that, or just a wild sadistic attitude XD

Rehdon

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 23:21 UTC (Fri) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link]

Yep, developers providing software for free is totally evil. I'm sure they are messing with users because they have nothing better to do with their time.

I'm a KDE fanboi, but I do wonder why every post about GNOME brings out the drama kings and queens

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:35 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

I think you missed the light tone of my post, shall I add <sarcasm> tags for you next time? or you want to tell me how well accepted was KDE 4.0 when it was introduced?

BTW yours is another typical reaction: 'this is free for you, so you can't criticize it, and if you do I'll just label it as "whining", "hate" and the like'. I respectfully disagree, 'free' doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, especially since I just can't see how you can build *any* kind of complex software in a vacuum, ignoring users' feedback.

Rehdon

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:59 UTC (Mon) by fb (subscriber, #53265) [Link]

> [snip] but I do wonder why every post about GNOME brings out the drama kings and queens

I guess the reason people complain about these changes is because it really breaks one's work flow. By that I really mean how well the desktop gets out of your way to simply let you *work*. The 2 main Linux desktops break user experience far too often (for some users) for no apparent reason or gain.

The tragedy of the Linux desktop is that loads of people use Gnome/KDE for work, but no one managed to turn these professional users into customers. There is really no option to become a Gnome/KDE "subscriber" (like for LWN). (yes, Red Hat has a desktop offering. No, not even the sales staff at Red Hat seems to know/care about it).

A while ago I bought a laptop for my parents (who live far far away) and would happily pay subscription fees for $DESKTOP in order to minimize regressions and increase 'just work' support (think printers/scanners), trouble is that in practice, that option does not exist.

IMHO the writing is on the wall. Except for ideologically committed folks, people with the financial means will keep migrating to OSX. The 'easy, stable & secure computer for parents' will cease to be `Linux with Ubuntu` and will become the Ipad or some Android tablet (should anyone ever release a decent offering *globally*).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:30 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

The tragedy of the Linux desktop is that loads of people use Gnome/KDE for work, but no one managed to turn these professional users into customers.

Amen to this. We have a market failure. The users and DE developers appear disconnected from each other (at least, a schism has opened up that wasn't there before). Many users have left to a certain proprietary system. The DE developers don't owe the users anything. Those indebted users who would like to pay have but mediocre options.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:48 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> The users and DE developers appear disconnected from each other (at least, a schism has opened up that wasn't there before).
Why are developers and users different people? I think the real problem, and the one I can least understand, is that the developers do not use their own applications. That is the only conclusion I can draw from the butchering that is going on.

I understand that all designers are impractical people who will happily produce something insane and impossible and then insist that it's brilliant in the face of all objection. They're artists, artists are like that. What I don't understand is why engineers are blindly following the advice of these people.

No one who isn't an engineer should design user interaction. It's said that engineers make terrible designers, but it's more true that non-engineers make terrible everything, so there's no option. The happy place is when the dreamy, impractical fool^H^H^H^Hartists thinks up his new design.... and then hands it to an engineer, who throws out the idiotic parts and builds the rest.

Somewhere along the way GNOME developers have stopped being engineers and started doing whatever the designers say. It's irresponsible, but I do understand. Developers love to not make choices, and if you have someone telling you "I know that it should work exactly like this" it's something of a relief to just be able to do that and not guess, and not write a ton of code to push the decision out to the user. But doing this is harmful! You're trusting people who by nature and inclination do not think things through to have thought things through; there's simply no way this can work and, of course, the result is horrible.

The solution is simple: Have developers in charge of applications who actually use the applications and who will ignore suggestions from designers when those suggestions are obviously impractical or deficient. That's the way good things have always been produced.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:29 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

You obviously never met a designer in your life.

> I understand that all designers are impractical people who will happily produce something insane and impossible and then insist that it's brilliant in the face of all objection.

Any person who does that is not a designer at all. Designers make extensive previous user-centered research, with tools like etnographic research, questionnaires and others. And designers, during the development of their products, do EXTENSIVE and INTENSIVE prototyping and testing WITH THEIR TARGET AUDIENCES, using A/B testing and other user testing tools. Engineers and software developers, OTOH, tend to think mistakingly they are the target audience, and they have vices like engraving the product or service with their own preferences, or removing important (from the point of view of the user) features, or, worse yet, setting novelty features as default (which breaks the user workflow 99% of the time).

Good design drives development in the direction of the user. The developers should help with the input and point the possibility of technical problems, or technically solve those problems. It's just like air traffic controllers show pilots where they should take their planes. Pilots still have to control the plane, but the important thing is that THE PASSENGERS arrive where they want to.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 11, 2012 14:35 UTC (Sat) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> And designers, during the development of their products, do EXTENSIVE and INTENSIVE prototyping and testing WITH THEIR TARGET AUDIENCES
This clearly wasn't done with GNOME, or the target is wrong. If all of that research and testing leads to GNOME3, then the process is wrong, the execution is wrong or the conclusions are ignored.

> Engineers and software developers, OTOH, tend to think mistakingly they are the target audience
In the case of GNOME, we are.

> Good design drives development in the direction of the user.
This is the theory, but is it done? If this practice were followed the results would be palatable to me; they aren't, so it wasn't.

> The developers should help with the input and point the possibility of technical problems, or technically solve those problems. It's just like air traffic controllers show pilots where they should take their planes.
Your analogy is backwards. Designers are the air traffic controllers, developers are the pilots.

If you do X and it leads to Y, and Y is something you don't like, then maybe you should stop doing X. What happened that lead to this disaster? I say "Blindly following the designer's crazed theories," but I'm not married to that interpretation if an alternative can be suggested that also matches the observed reality. If your counter is "This isn't a disaster" then I'm sorry, I was talking to the people who recognize that there is a problem and want to fix it, not those who are contributing to it.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 13, 2012 16:50 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

The whole point of my post was: there were no designers involved in GNOME development.

They don't even know what their target audience is, which is why they keep pissing off people who actually use their software with every upgrade.

> Your analogy is backwards. Designers are the air traffic controllers, developers are the pilots.

That is EXACTLY my analogy, either I didn't express myself correctly (possible, sorry, English as a foreign language here) or you didn't understand it... please read again.

> If you do X and it leads to Y, and Y is something you don't like, then maybe you should stop doing X. What happened that lead to this disaster? I say "Blindly following the designer's crazed theories," but I'm not married to that interpretation if an alternative can be suggested that also matches the observed reality. If your counter is "This isn't a disaster" then I'm sorry, I was talking to the people who recognize that there is a problem and want to fix it, not those who are contributing to it.

Again, my point was GNOME had no designers. Designers would not have lead them to the present disaster, and oh boy, is GNOME 3 a disaster... (even if it is kinda cool, it's still missing parts and it's not installable alongside "just works" GNOME2, so...)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 23:14 UTC (Mon) by JoeF (subscriber, #4486) [Link]

I'm a KDE fanboi, but I do wonder why every post about GNOME brings out the drama kings and queens

You may remember the outcry when KDE4 came out...

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 23:44 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

(disclaimer: long-time kde user and fanboi too)

well, actually... The kde 3->4 transition was poorly handled, too, but kde4-libs are really well-engineered, so kde users got really disappointed b/c we thought it would go better. The apps took too long to convert and we got Amarok kde4-based and IIRC digikam kde3-based. *And* we had a BEAUTIFUL, FAST and full-featured browser (konqueror) that took forever to convert (and it was never really the same, after). And much of the outcry was because the transition was really well-handled from kde 1->2 and 2->3. The conversion took so long that by the time we had the functional equivalent of kde 3.5.0, it was already 4.3 or 4.4.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:44 UTC (Tue) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

I think the key difference was the attitude of the developers - in the KDE 4.0 era the conversations were along the lines of:

User: "Wah! It's broken!"
KDE: "Yeah, we know, we're fixing it, hold tight"

whereas with Gnome 3 it feels more like:

User: "Wah! It's broken!"
Gnome: "No, that's deliberate, you just don't understand why we're right and you're wrong. You should work on that."

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 7:24 UTC (Tue) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]

"Hold tight"?? KDE developers activated by default Nepomuk even though it was broken for a *long* time (several years, several release), so I'd say that this is a very inaccurate summary.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:26 UTC (Tue) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

Sure, but it, along with a lot of KDE 4.0 stuff, was acknowledged to be unfinished, but with the intention that it would be finished. With Gnome, the type-ahead feature has been taken away, and there's no intention to fix it. That's completely different.

As people have said several times in this very thread, the problem isn't the introduction of a shiny new (not quite working) search feature. The problem is the withdrawal of an existing, working, expected and useful feature.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 15:55 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Except that the problem with Nepomuk was that, on anything but the latest hardware, it made the system unusable.

Defaulting to an unusable system? WTF!

Okay, if I will run it on an Athlon t-bird, but I came across plenty of reports of boot times measured in tens of minutes, and occasionally hours, when some poor sod didn't realise his "upgrade" had activated Nepomuk. How are you supposed to recover your system if it's taking eons to boot?

I can't remember how bad it was for me, but I can remember struggling to disable it to get a usable system back. I think it might have been enabled again by now but ...

The main excuse by the developers for enabling it was "but it'll make using kmail faster..." - another WTF moment! How many KDE users run kmail? I've NEVER used it - why should I want an app on my system enabled by default who's *only* effect on my normal work is to slow it to the speed of frozen treacle?

That said, I've stuck with KDE ever since SuSE 5.x, although I've now got xfce and lxde installed as well - lxde looks nice ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:56 UTC (Tue) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link]

The main excuse by the developers for enabling it was "but it'll make using kmail faster..."

Are you sure you're not confusing Nepomuk with Akonadi?

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 14:03 UTC (Tue) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

> KDE developers activated by default Nepomuk even though it was broken for a *long* time

once I deactivated it (on KDE 4.1) I had to manually reactivate it (on KDE 4.8) as I heard it was working properly.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 8, 2012 0:37 UTC (Wed) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link]

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:53 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

User: "Wah! It's broken!"
KDE: "Yeah, we know, we're fixing it, hold tight"

That is if the conversation doesn't go like

User: »Wah! It's broken!«
KDE: »Yeah, we know, but can't be bothered just now because it is imperative to get the new LOLcat plasmoid finished first. Also, the developer of your broken code left, and the program in question must be rewritten from scratch anyway because nobody here understands how it works. Feel free to do it yourself if you're in a hurry.«

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 14:05 UTC (Tue) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

You forgot "you can still continue using kde 3.5.8, and we will put 3.5.9 out next week. ah, you'll lose on Amarok, but just that."

With regard to Amarok

Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:24 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

I'm now a happy Clementine user.

But it's not that that's the reason why. As a gentoo user, I got fed up with Amarok repeatedly breaking Postfix - and as I run a local mail server that's a big deal. Some screw-up with MySQL settings.

But I like Clementine, it's nice.

Cheers,
Wol

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:57 UTC (Fri) by Russ.Dill@gmail.com (guest, #52805) [Link]

Gah, it's got that stupid thing where the menu is now way over on the upper left of the left monitor. That can be about two or three feet away from where the window is, real nice, real nice.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:44 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

The "Up" keyboard shortcut not working is a bug, not a conspiracy.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 22:57 UTC (Sun) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

A conspiracy is collusion in service of breaking the law. Removing important features for transparently specious reasons is not against the law. That's not to say it's a good idea. Only the person who coded it can say whether it was a bug.

The Gnome 3 development process must be exciting to participate in, but that has nothing at all to do with whether its outcome is any good. Probably it would be better to evaluate development processes according to how good the results are. While that might be less immediately gratifying to the developers (really, the only ones who matter), to produce software that gets used and not cursed at is finally more gratifying, for most of us.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:53 UTC (Fri) by bats999 (guest, #70285) [Link]

+1 for adding an option to make a folder for selected files. This is a useful, simple, boring, non-disruptive context operation...perfect.

Search may be a problem, it looks as if that particular use case will trample everything else in the program.

"One way we can do better is not rely on our ability to predict the future. We are pretty awful at it most of the time." Oh, the irony.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:22 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Well, his "goals" are pretty much good ideas, but it's not clear why he has to devastate a bunch of existing useful features that all other file managers have to add them.

Also, newsflash: search is done with an *INPUT BOX ON THE TOP RIGHT* (or integrated in the URL bar) in all browsers and Windows Explorer (since Windows Vista in 2006), NOT WITH A BUTTON.

Oh, and please explain why your new pet feature "New folder with selection" is more worthy of inclusion than the 20-years-established features you butchered, genius.

And then, your "type ahead find" removal is bullshit, in Firefox "type ahead" searches within the CURRENT PAGE, and the search box searches the UNIVERSE: this is obvious to any 3 year old, but no, he has to vandalize the ability to select files by name in a folder to add global search...

And there's no mention of removing the tree view, lol, it's going to be funny when real users that...

This is what happens when you have a dictatorship with a bad dictator.

Please revert all his shitty commits that remove features (but maybe keep the new features he added, after fixing them to comply with the UI everybody else uses, as they seem kind of useful).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:52 UTC (Fri) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

> And then, your "type ahead find" removal is bullshit,

From TFA: "This implies a few things. That searching be: fast, performed as you type, [...]"

Uhm, did you actually *read it*, before going on a ./-like rampage?
And the tree view was quite hideous to be honest. The main reason you wanted that, is if you need to move files across different folders; now you should be able to do so by the new "Move to..." feature.

However, if people actually provided a list of use-cases, instead of flaming, maybe it would be possible to design software making sure they are covered.

Mind you, not that I always agree with the direction the designer team is taking. They are giving GNOME identity, but at a great price.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:59 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Based on the article, it seems that just typing activates search in all subfolders.

This is WRONG: typing must result in selecting the first file in the current view/folder that has the typed text as a prefix (or perhaps anywhere in the name, although that differs from Windows Explorer).

Showing a "search results view" is done by clicking on an input box in the top right of the UI, typing and usually pressing Enter (although "live search" is also fine).

That's the way Windows Explorer works, the way Firefox works, the way iTunes works, the way EVERYTHING not designed by the GNOME 3 morons works.

Oh and the side tree view is in Windows Explorer (the file manager 90%+ of computer users are most familiar with) since 1992, and is a fundamental feature, so it really takes a madman to even consider removing it.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:19 UTC (Fri) by tchernobog (subscriber, #73595) [Link]

> Based on the article, it seems that just typing activates search in all subfolders.
>
> This is WRONG: typing must result in selecting the first file in the current view/folder that has the typed text as a prefix (or perhaps anywhere in the name, although that differs from Windows Explorer).

I understand the problem, especially if you have a lot of files. Maybe someone should point it out *politely*, by writing to the designer team mailing list, presenting their use-case.

> Oh and the side tree view is in Windows Explorer (the file manager 90%+ of computer users are most familiar with) since 1992, and is a fundamental feature, so it really takes a madman to even consider removing it.

I don't know if it is so fundamental. For instance, in Windows Explorer it's not enforced at all, and I think it's something like 10 years since I last used this feature. The default view is the icon one. The Mac OS X Finder uses a list mode, and you can browse one branch of the tree at a time.

When I am presented with the tree view, I find it cluttered, but maybe it has something to do with the choice of the initial nodes for the tree rather than anything else. Or maybe because I have to remember also at which level is the stuff I am searching for, introducing a third dimension - while I could achieve normally the same stuff by opening two separate windows. (By the way, someone remembers the "spatial window" mode forced upon users in GNOME 2.something? *THAT* was criminal).

The main reason I can think about justifying the need to put a file manager in tree mode, is for moving files in different directories; however the "Move to" and "Create directory" new features should address most of the use cases for that.

The tree view also has a number of usability issues; a notable one is that it requires some dexterity with the mouse, especially to click on the expanding triangle. For experts, this is not an issue, but for beginners and impaired people it's not nice. Also, it works bad with touch screens.

Nevertheless, I agree that keeping it should not be a huge problem. Dropping it seems to be just silly; it shouldn't take gazillions of lines of code to be maintained (else, there's something very wrong with nautilus...).

Incidentally: in 1992 I was still using tapes for loading programs, and BBS - not Internet - were the rage... We evolve, sometimes we get it right, sometimes not, but it's better trying than stagnating. After all, you still have MATE or XFCE if you prefer to use those, no? Installing them from the package manager is easy enough.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:35 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

I think it's kind of essential to have a tree view when navigating a hierarchy, so you can, you know, see where you are in the hierarchy and navigate through it.

Like, for example, say you are in the "build" directory of a source tree.

The tree view then tells you immediately that there is also a "source" directory and a "docs" directory, where they are, and that the program is in a folder with the source of other programs, and you immediately learn the name of those other programs, and can go visit them easily with a single click.

Personally, I don't think "Copy to" and "Move to" specifically needs a tree view, since you can just Ctrl+C, navigate to destination, Ctrl+V (well, until the GNOME 3 geniuses remove the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V shortcuts, which I'm sure they will if not stopped before since they "don't work with touch").

Some people might prefer to drag or Ctrl+drag files to entries in the tree view though, which is another reason to not remove established features.

> The tree view also has a number of usability issues; a notable one is that it requires some dexterity with the mouse, especially to click on the expanding triangle.

Well, this is probably a good point, but the solution is to make the triangle bigger relative to the entry, expand the clickable area in the whitespace to the left and/or make the entries taller, not to remove the feature!

You don't cut off someone's head because he has an headache.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:23 UTC (Fri) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link]

> Personally, I don't think "Copy to" and "Move to" specifically needs a
> tree view, since you can just Ctrl+C, navigate to destination, Ctrl+V
> (well, until the GNOME 3 geniuses remove the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V shortcuts,
> which I'm sure they will if not stopped before since they "don't work
> with touch").

Hmm, you mean, doing something stupid like not sending SIGINIT and LNEXT respectively?

I don't give a damn whether windows does it, but there are enough modifier keys on a keyboard that "copy" and "paste" can be assigned something else (like "command-C", as MacOS X does it).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:40 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> I think it's kind of essential to have a tree view when navigating a hierarchy, so you can, you know, see where you are in the hierarchy and navigate through it.

You got that wrong buddy. You _do_ _not_ want to see where you are at all. Never. Ever!

See, Gnome Shell comes with similar "improvements", such as removal of (at least) a decade old workspace switcher. This decade old workspace switcher could tell you where you were just by glancing at it. No action required at all. Just turn your eyes to where it sits and voilà - you know.

The new behaviour is far better, you see. You have to travel with the mouse up the top (nah - just use the keyboard - they'll tell you), then either wait or click, then travel to the right to actually see the workspaces, after they "slide out". Soo much better!

So, here is what you need to do. You need to work with one file at the time, using one program at the time. OK? Because, that's the new paradigm.

;-)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:05 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> So, here is what you need to do. You need to work with one file at the time, using one program at the time. OK? Because, that's the new paradigm.

STOP! Don't give them new ideas!

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:55 UTC (Fri) by sciurus (subscriber, #58832) [Link]

Too late, there's aleady http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/GNOME

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:59 UTC (Fri) by sciurus (subscriber, #58832) [Link]

On second thought, that page is much more offensive than I remembered, so you may not want to click. This is a shame, since it has some gems like "The ultimate GNoal for the GNOME desktop is to completely make users obsolete by eventually removing support for user input devices, instead, opting for simply allowing the user to view several pixels at random."

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:05 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> You got that wrong buddy. You _do_ _not_ want to see where you are at all. Never. Ever!

You have your current path displayed at the top of the window.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:56 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

I think you may want to read the post I was replying to again. There is more to it than current path, obviously.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:56 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

I see.

In the case of copy and paste were you don't want to navigate to another directory in the original dialog; you must have at least two windows open. One with the path of the source and another with the path to the destination.

Tree view, while it may be a nice feature, is certainly not required to keep track of multiple paths in a graphical manner.

I am not defending the removal of the tree view or diminishing the desire of others to have such a feature. I am just saying that it's certainly not required to keep track of locations as I have not been aware that Nautilus supported tree view for many many years and it has never occurred to me that it's missing any functionality nor has it diminished my ability to copy and paste between different directories.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 1:22 UTC (Sat) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

Just like you, I do not use tree view. That does not mean it is not useful to someone else. I recognise and respect that.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:20 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

I am glad we agree on that point.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:35 UTC (Fri) by kh (subscriber, #19413) [Link]

If you leave people tree view, they won't be forced to use your new search, duh! In the next version we may be able to get rid of folders altogether. Search, don't organize!

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:14 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I don't know if it is so fundamental. For instance, in Windows Explorer it's not enforced at all, and I think it's something like 10 years since I last used this feature. The default view is the icon one. The Mac OS X Finder uses a list mode, and you can browse one branch of the tree at a time.

You are looking in the wrong direction.

There are two audiences: developers and so-called end-users (content-consumers, mostly). For developers tree view is absolutely vital (compare IDEs of 20 years ago which had no tree view or very rudimentary tree view and today's IDEs which invariably put tree view of the project as the cornerstone of it's look and feel). For end users it's still not as important (both iOS and Android hide even the fact that you have some filesystem on your device from casual user).

Now, if GNOME removes such fundamental features then it's clear signal that it does not care about developers—but the problem here lies with the fact that there are no casual users on Linux: there are no games, no accounting programs, etc. The end result: system which is good for [almost] nobody. It clearly abandoned it's existing audience but it's built for an OS which makes it basically unusable for the Joe Average. The end result? Something bad for everybody. Either GNOME developers need to stop pretending they care about developers and start developing/embracing OS-for-the-content-consumers or they should return things like tree view which developer's value highly.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:29 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

I still haven't managed to find an acceptable linux equivalent for Windows Explorer's tree view...

For those people who like it, it's a very important feature.

Cheers,
Wol

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:22 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

I think that at this point your just making up stuff to rant about. I don't see anywhere that mentions subfolders or any such thing.

I personally like 'type ahead find' were I can just type what I want and search through things. But indeed with Nautilus it is less useful then it should be for numerous reasons, many of which are mentioned in the article. Hopefully they will have something to replace it with similar-but-better functionality.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:33 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Nope. Slashdot is totally correct, I have the new version of Nautilus and typing indeed starts searching everywhere in the subfolders.

Works REALLY nice with my "work" subfolder. Not.

This is so unbelievably stupid that I have just apt-get removed Nautilus from my computer. I don't want it to be defiled with this POS.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:01 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

That does sound terrible.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 8:44 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:38 UTC (Fri) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

Quite a depressing read ...

Rehdon

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 12:00 UTC (Fri) by billev2k (subscriber, #32054) [Link]

Depressing, indeed. I really can't imagine what these folks are thinking.

Yes, search is really useful, and a good, cool, fast search feature is a great thing. And it is completely orthogonal to navigation within a directory. AND I'm willing to bet money that search is *much* less frequently desired than navigation, once one has found where they're working.

So, yes, add a great search! Even give a shortcut key and button to start it. But let me say "Nautilus, please find this for me".

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 12:38 UTC (Fri) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

What I found most depressing: the attitude of the devs who answered. I mean, the guy who opened the bug report surely wasn't ranting, he explained his points really well, and even if the last paragraph might look ad hominem it actually wasn't (the question "is anyone doing a thorough review of these ideas or is this a one man show?" is perfectly legitimate IMHO, especially on the basis of McCann's post). And what happens? here comes the Gnome police:

"Please keep comments technical and do not get personal by criticizing
particular developers for changes that you describe rather generically."

Conveniently ignoring all the technical explanation and focusing on one sentence with the clear intent to discourage further elaboration of the issue.

Have seen that happen elsewhere, even here on LWN. Reading that kind of reaction makes me feel like I'm staring deep into the abyss...

Rehdon

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:45 UTC (Fri) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

Political correctness often enters when the desire is to deflect rather than engage in a discussion. The larger discussion of how the remaining Gnome team is actually deciding these issues is entirely legitimate, but one which they'd apparently prefer to remain opaque. It's a bitter feedback loop, because these processes tend to alienate people other than the "true believers" -- who alienate the rest, when their true belief has little to do with the world of users. That's why it's important to engage.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:35 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

The people looking after the style of communication are not the developers, nor designers. They are the bugmasters. Further, the reporter in bug 680118 is a GNOME triager.

Anyway, your summary of how GNOME behaves is plain wrong.

If you think that you should be allowed to behave inappropriately, then you'll be warned and if you continue, banned. During the warning we make it explicitly clear that the opinion is of no interest, just the style of communication. Meaning: we don't care one bit if you're pro or con. I actually prefer con, because all kinds of "+1s" is just wasteful.

If you think that behaving inappropriately (e.g. insults) will make anyone receptive to what you're saying... then, cool, but don't try to do that on a GNOME server.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:25 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Conveniently ignoring all the technical explanation and focusing on one sentence with the clear intent to discourage further elaboration of the issue.

At GNOME Bugzilla we're not going to split the technical bits from the non constructive comments. If you cannot say things politely, you'll be warned and eventually banned.

Now the comment about sticking to technical matters was a direct response to https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680118#c18.

I don't see that as a valuable comment.

Feel free to disagree on someone elses server.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:40 UTC (Sat) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

> Feel free to disagree on someone elses server.

Or just use someone else's software, so the problem doesn't come up in the first place...

BTW, since you appear to be someone involved with GNOME 3, how about starting some sort of motion to get rid of the Nautilus maintainer Cosimo Cecchi?

He's clearly totally incompetent: why don't you revoke his commit privileges and find someone else instead?

I mean, the idiocy of the maintainer is clearly the real "bug" there, and it's not possible to productively discuss technical issues if the ultimate judge of them is a moron.

Although I guess that since the disease probably runs deeper in the GNOME 3 leadership, it's likely going to be hard to find someone willing to work with the rest of those guys, so you probably should just get rid of all current maintainers and anyone else currently holding leadership positions.

I mean, it's not that much of an issue because all users will eventually switch away and GNOME will eventually die and be replaced, but it's a real pity to see GNOME, which once was THE free software desktop, go down this way.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 22:05 UTC (Sat) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

I sure hope that people are aware that behavior like yours is what leads to GNOME developers not caring one bit about negative feedback.

If feedback is filled to the brim with trolls, rudeness, insults and plain hate, there is only 2 ways to live with it:
(1) Ignore it.
(2) Don't take it serious.
Which is the primary reason why feedback from sites like LWN rarely makes its way into the GNOME community.

In case you don't understand what I'm talking about: Talking about trying to "get rid of" someone or otherwise claiming someone is harmful certainly requires solid arguments. In particular it requires research into the whys of their behavior and having a clue what the problems actually are.

I sure wish there were people in here that had the audacity to get people like you to shut up.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 1:25 UTC (Sun) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Well, you have someone who, using their maintainer position, does this:
1. Removes an already implemented highly established feature also present in Windows Explorer and most other applications where it makes sense to have it
2. Replaces it with nothing or with a feature with an UI that is different from all other similar software and that cannot cover all use cases as well or better (as argued by users)
3. Doesn't provide a detailed rationale of the exceptional circumstance resulting in some great advantage in doing this that offsets all the disadavntages
4. Causes several users to complain about the above
5. Doesn't either reconsider, announce he's thinking about it or explain exactly why the decision is good despite the huge negatives

This applies to both type ahead find, sidebar tree view and the compact view he recently approved the removal of.

I think that's not what you want from a maintainer, ESPECIALLY when said project already has issues with having a sizeble fraction of its former GNOME 2 users no longer liking it and vocally criticizing it.

And no, McCann's post doesn't really explain at all why the changes are a good tradeoff: he incorrectly states that all use cases are preserved, fails to even consider how easily existing users and prospective users now using Windows will understand and cope with the changes and that "Sometimes is just not possible to add new functionality without first making some room" (which is just bullshit, as software can grow without limits).

Now, of course, if you can get him and other people acting similarly to change to more effective behavior, that's good, but otherwise replacing them seems advisable.

Especially if these people are paid to work full-time, since that means you can just hire a random good programmer instead and tell him to get up to speed on the project, and don't need to actually hope someone fills the spot on his own accord.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 9:54 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

"Sometimes is just not possible to add new functionality without first making some room" (which is just bullshit, as software can grow without limits).
Your keyboard has an infinite number of keys on it? The room he was talking about was room in the user interface, not room in the code. You can't both have plain alphanumeric typing do a search-names-in-current-dir and search-subtree-recursively. That's a shortage of room in this sense.

(The changes sound quite horrible to me too, but that doesn't make your reasoning any less flawed.)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 10:52 UTC (Sun) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Well, but features don't have to be keybound, so the only true statement is that "Sometimes you cannot add a new easy-to-hit keyboard shortcut without removing an existing easy-to-hit keyboard shortcut", which is very true (to the hindrance of many gamers).

At any rate, if both the previous and the new key binding schemes are useful, an option to choose between them can be added.

But that's probably not the case here, where keeping the current behavior and ADDING a search box on the top right and a keybind (Firefox uses Ctrl+K, not sure if it conflicts with something in Nautilus) seems by far the most reasonable course of action.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:50 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

"Now the comment about sticking to technical matters was a direct response to https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680118#c18."

That's not true: the comment I quoted is comment n. 2, and it's the first comment by a Gnome dev to the bug reporter. Your policy makes sense, and comment n. 18 adds only noise to the bug discussion (polluting a technical discussion thread is surely reason enough for a warning and even a ban), but I don't think you can say the same thing about the bug report itself, not at all. A warning about your "politeness reporting", and even a link to the Gnome conduct code as first comment by a dev sounds like a clear "we don't want to hear about this" message to me. Fortunately McCann answered and the discussion could be started, but as you can see the reporter was clearly disheartened by this reaction.

My 0,02€, feel free to disagree on any server.

Rehdon

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 8:58 UTC (Mon) by andre47 (subscriber, #86127) [Link]

The comment was NOT by a dev. The comment was by a bugmaster (me). As I am a bugmaster and not a dev I won't comment on the report content itself if I don't have enough background.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 5:59 UTC (Tue) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

That's just semantic hair-splitting. If you're the bugmaster, you're involved in Gnome development, even if you don't code a line of Gnome libs/apps. Perhaps what you meant was "I'm not a programmer", which is not relevant to this discussion.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:30 UTC (Tue) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

Quite, but again another response of the same character - not to engage with the issue at all, but to try to find any tiny, arguably not even real, little nit to pick at to deflect, derail and discourage.

I have to say, on a somewhat personal note, that this seems to be André's thing - he used to be involved in the same process in the Maemo project, treating bug reports as attacks to be fended off rather than contributions to be made use of.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 10, 2012 23:59 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

Ah, the venerable Mr. Klapper. I remember my one (and only) communication with this kind soul; I asked him a question that got me a ban on gnome bugzilla (for trolling).

Do note, that the politeness is apparently not required from developers, bugmasters and other GNOME bureaucrats; Mr Klapper's answer to polite question about implementing SIEVE support in Evolution was rather curt: Nobody works on this and nobody plans to. Patches welcome.

It's a pity that many GNOME people seem to be organically unable to do something that was quite obvious to Philip Hazel (ex-maintainer of Exim):

Writing/maintaining software is providing a service (even when it's free). You need to listen to your customers if you want to learn what features they need and thereby improve your product. Of course, the customer isn't _always_ right, and often they suggest specific implementations which don't fit into the "grand scheme", but it's the input of ideas which is important. Even if they seem at first to be "wrong", I've found it's always worth thinking about them, even if you ultimate modify or reject them.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 11, 2012 8:55 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Well, the difference there is that Phil Hazel has instinctive charm and courtesy and is pleasant to pretty much everyone by default. This is a very rare trait and most people don't have it.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 13, 2012 1:39 UTC (Mon) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

The main difference, IMHO, lies in that Philip Hazel is a professional. The GNOME folks, on the other hand, have a long way to go until they start to match his level of professionality.

Unfortunately they were handed a decision power before they got a chance to learn, and now we're seeing the same pattern repeated for the last few years: development is ruled by fiat, features are excised on a whim, many decisions seem to enjoy the quality of a revelation, dissenters are trolls, and presented use cases are dismissed (with users sometimes being told to stop trolling).

Of course, the paradigms change every few years (or with every second maintainer), what does not change is the surety of the developers and the swiftness of banhammer wielded by the – very appropriately named – bugmasters.

(Does anyone still remember the Great Spatial Paradigm being the One True Way?)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 6:36 UTC (Tue) by jonasj (guest, #44344) [Link]

> The comment was NOT by a dev. The comment was by a bugmaster (me).

Then it's funny that the bug tracker in question refers to you as "André Klapper [developer]" :-)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 23:52 UTC (Sun) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

"Now the comment about sticking to technical matters was a direct response to [...]"

No, it wasn't. It was comment #2, the first response to the original bug reporter, who had already stuck to technical matters. It was a blatant attempt to derail the report and squash legitimate criticism. Your dishonest response here does neither you, nor GNOME, any favours at all.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:51 UTC (Mon) by cladisch (✭ supporter ✭, #50193) [Link]

> "Now the comment about sticking to technical matters was a direct response to [...]"
>
> No, it wasn't. It was comment #2, the first response to the original bug reporter, who had already stuck to technical matters.

It was a direct response to "Is there anybody here that stops and thinks whether everything that Jon McCann thinks up is a good idea?"

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:31 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> It was a direct response to "Is there anybody here that stops and thinks whether everything that Jon McCann thinks up is a good idea?"
Sounds like a purely technical question, to me. Would it have been somehow less offensive if he had rephrased to omit mention of the name of the person who thought up the idea that lead to the technically horrible change?

Try this on for size: "Is there anybody whose responsibility it is to review whether the changes recommended by designers are good for the application?" Is that better? Although I can't see the value in not naming the person, I suppose this sounds more politically correct.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:57 UTC (Mon) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Both the original question and your rephrasing qualify as that. One uses the name, the other uses "the designers".

The correct question would be:
"Is there anybody whose responsibility it is to review whether recommended changes are good for the application?"

And that sounds very much like a rhetorical question to me.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:45 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

> Both the original question and your rephrasing qualify as that.

Posting a link that refutes your own claim is a pretty poor show if you're trying to get others to share your opinion.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:11 UTC (Tue) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 10:35 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

Please come back once you have learned basic reading comprehension; you're embarrassing yourself.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 10:50 UTC (Tue) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

That's not an "ad hominem" attack, it's a question about how the GNOME development organization works.

Although a more pertinent question would be "is there anyone outside the GNOME clique that checks whether the maintainers of GNOME applications do a good job?"

And that's indeed rhetorical, since clearly there's no one checking.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 23:32 UTC (Tue) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

It's an ad hominem because it explicitly mentions Jon McCann after pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of him (namely: All your whining i this whole thread). Granted, it's somewhat more complicated than the usual your mom jokes.

Also, there are various instances outside of GNOME that check whether the maintainers of GNOME applications do a good job. In fact, you are doing that in this thread. It's a side effect of open development.

What you're really after is this: Who is doing anything when GNOME developers mess up?

And that is happening. Those people enjoy Unity, KDE and XFCE. At least if you believe what they're writing everywhere.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:04 UTC (Mon) by colo (subscriber, #45564) [Link]

It really is sad in a way, but this is _exactly_ what the bug's comment history and the reaction to it in this thread made me think, too.

I'm afraid GNOME's fate is already sealed, and it's not a pretty one.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 10:35 UTC (Fri) by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963) [Link]

Searching in subfolders is useful for a lot of people and they could easily solve your problem by ranking the search results properly.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:41 UTC (Fri) by efraim (guest, #65977) [Link]

This is so absolutely hilarious: What once have been a fundamental navigational operation - walking a directory tree, typing first few letters to get down to the next level - now turned into an adventure, where at each step I should, quoting, "rank my search results properly."

Hell, I did not even notice this operation had search results previously. Like I did not notice mousing over to file or moving my hand to a steering wheel had search results. It was absolutely instinctive.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:07 UTC (Fri) by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963) [Link]

You seem confused by my comment - the ranking of the search results is done by the logic implemented in the program. You're free to modify it, being open source and all, but while using the program you don't need to think about that logic. It just works.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 20:55 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Say I am browsing a directory using nautilus.

I have 500 files in there.

How do I, using the new search method, go down the files that start with 'n' and then navigate up and down to see the files that start with l, m, o, and p? Using almost any file manager it's a lightening fast affair.

How can I do that quickly in Nautilus with out forcing myself to visually scroll up and down the directory to find 'n' manually?

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:09 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Or, I'm browsing my NFS-mounted home directory. It's got about fifty directories at the top level and a quarter of a million files in it. I type a couple of letters to get to the right directory, and WHAM the thing freezes for ages while it does a massive find(1) (because tracker plus NFS do not get on, though for that we have the local-VFS-reporting-only idiocy of inotify/dnotify to thank -- I keep meaning to implement something network-aware on top of them, but have never got around to it.)

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 24, 2012 20:16 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

Wouldn't it be better to index those files on the file server, and query its "indexing server" over the network? Having 100s or 1000s of PCs in a company each crawl the multi-terrabyte (or probably even bigger) NFS server to make their own private index of it doesn't sound like a very optimal solution to me…

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:38 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

It is indeed really really slow in the current version. That is not how it should be in the stable version; then it should be quick.

Suggest to give a bit of leeway to unstable versions. They're called unstable versions for a reason. Do file bugs of course (in case they haven't been filed, else cc to the existing bug).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 14:20 UTC (Sun) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> It is indeed really really slow in the current version. That is not how it should be in the stable version; then it should be quick.

And if (or should I say "When"?) it's not? Will the changes all be reverted at that time, or will the "fix" be to wait and see if it can be made faster and/or for people who have a problem stop complaining?

> Suggest to give a bit of leeway to unstable versions.

Leeway requires trust and that, I think, is something that is in short supply where GNOME is concerned.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 21:53 UTC (Tue) by zlynx (subscriber, #2285) [Link]

And is "quick" going to require running a indexing service that will destroy any vestige of speed and responsiveness remaining in the system?

When indexing daemons can make an 8 core system with a SSD feel like a 486, they had better not be required because they are going to be disabled and removed pronto, unless the desktop environment is simply abandoned instead.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 23:30 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

>It is indeed really really slow in the current version. That is not how it should be in the stable version; then it should be quick.
My 'work' folder has about 12 million files in pretty deep trees. There's no way to search them fast enough. And I'm not running any indexing service (not even the venerable updatedb) nor I'm going to run them. Is it going to become mandatory?

What's next, mandatory Facebook accounts? Or perhaps DBUS over Twitter protocol?

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:34 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

And here's an intelligent user correctly arguing WHY things are like this and keeping this behavior is good:
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2012-August...

Of course, again, this is extremely basic stuff, and honestly, a UI designer that cannot realize this needs to take up gardening instead (where they'll probably be as bad, but at least they are going to ruin their own garden only).

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 11:02 UTC (Fri) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

BTW, the reason that all comments on his blog article and other GNOME blogs are positive is simple: comments are moderated and they censor the negative ones.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:28 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

That is wrong: There is no generic policy to censor blogs.

E.g. on my GNOME blog I only not approve non constructive comments. I don't care if someone is positive or negative. Only if they're constructive (basically: personal insults don't get approved).

So your statement that all blogs are censored is factually wrong.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 3:12 UTC (Sat) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Well, how do you expect to get constructive criticism when maintainers systematically ignore all outside feedback?

In such a situation, publicly denouncing the incompetence (and sometimes utter folly and idiocy) of the maintainers is the only remaining option, and I guess that's what you consider "personal insults".

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 3, 2012 11:43 UTC (Fri) by grantingram (guest, #18390) [Link]

Reading the article introduces some mixed emotions on the plus side I've found out about some great features of Nautilus (type ahead and the side pane) and on the other I discover they are about to be axed....

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:31 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Am I the only one who never uses a file browser? I find them much more trouble than they're worth. I prefer living in an xterm and using tools like find to find things.

Am I a living dinosaur? :)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:47 UTC (Fri) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

Yes! And now I hope you're not a carnivorous one! ;)

Rehdon

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 14:48 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Do you have feathers and a beak? If so, you're a living dinosaur :)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:58 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I guess that explains why I'm cheep, too. :)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:25 UTC (Fri) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]

> Am I the only one who never uses a file browser?

No, you're not.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 21:01 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

graphical file managers are all cumbersome, slow, and irritating to use.

Commandline is fast and you have proper amount of control.

However sometimes you want to have visual representation of the files and then GUIs are nice. And other people have no issue with using them and are quite adept.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:15 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Quite. The ideal would be to have both a command-line and a file browser. KDE's Konqueror gave us that in days of yore, and Dolphin still can. Midnight Commander gave us the same. These days I tend to use Sunrise Commander for the same reason, though I can see why it wouldn't appeal to a non-Emacs user.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 4, 2012 19:33 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yup. I still miss the power of FAR Manager from Windows. It has both rich command line support and file navigation.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 5, 2012 0:20 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I keep ranger (OS X-like file browser on the terminal), vidir (handy file renaming tool), and vifm (another two-pane file manager) handy, but mostly zsh's magic gives me everything I need (zmv, smart tab completion for paths (e.g., ~/c/o/hask<Tab> -> ~/code/other/lang-haskell being a key one)).

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:46 UTC (Fri) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

> I prefer living in an xterm and using tools like find to find things.

I do the same, although I use gnome-terminal, which is what I consider to be "the good part of Gnome." They can keep their shell and apps, but thanks for the terminal program.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 17:58 UTC (Fri) by bats999 (guest, #70285) [Link]

Many times a terminal is the only thing for the job, but in some contexts a file browser just works better for me, as when I'm thinking of files as objects rather than re matches. Nautilus should focus on adding those types of features rather than obsessing on their pretty pixels and tearing out stuff for half-baked search experiments.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 20:17 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

I find the file browser (Thunar currently) very useful.
However I must admit that there is only one button that I actually use with any regularity - the 'unmount' button for the SD card that I'm about to pull out. Clicking that really is quicker than typing "sudo umount /media/*" ... though I guess I could create an alias.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 5, 2012 20:20 UTC (Sun) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]

> the 'unmount' button for the SD card that I'm about to pull out.

Automount the SD card, with a short timeout. Then just cd out of the card's filesystem (e.g. "cd", which you were going to do anyway), reach over and pull out the card.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 3:53 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

If you have a large quantity of dirty buffers then you'll end up ejecting the card before it's flushed. This isn't a great approach.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:47 UTC (Mon) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

You can 'work around' this by mounting it 'sync', which I used to do for my mp3 player. This of course kills responsiveness of moving things onto it, but for my 'scriptflow' this was preferable.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 18:31 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

why all this? one can just let the card automount, then "mv xxx /media/card; sync; eject /dev/sdX" and it's sync'ed and eject'ed... :-D

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:12 UTC (Tue) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Having messed up on several occasions thanks to dirty buffers, seeing as I always have an open konsole, I just unmount in dolphin, then sync in konsole. Seems to work okay - when sync returns the data is flushed.

Cheers,
Wol

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 3, 2012 22:06 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Image and movie thumbnail previews are nice. Pity that xfce's thumbnail generator, tumblerd, has a nasty habit of eating up my cpus and preventing unmounts.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:30 UTC (Sat) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143) [Link]

At least you've got plenty of other terminal-using dinosaurs here to keep you company, at least until climate change swings the other way and brings on another ice age (I for one am not sticking around for that, hate freezing weather...)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 5, 2012 14:32 UTC (Sun) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> Am I the only one who never uses a file browser?

You are not alone. When I first came to Linux there were *no* fast file managers except possibly the norton commander clones (which I just don't like). Of the more explorer-like managers the fastest was gmc, but it was still slower than windows explorer had been on the same hardware. It was so incredibly painful to do any of the simple file management activities that I was accustomed to doing via GUI file managers that I took up using xterms for my file management, which forced me to learn command line tools more thoroughly.

By the time any good options existed I couldn't go back to GUI managers and now I just never use them. Today there are only two good choices of explorer-style file manager anyway: pcmanfm and dolphin. Everything else is brain damaged, horribly slow, or both. The best Linux file manager I've ever seen was endevour2, but it seems to have fallen off the internet at some point.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:02 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I use graphical file managers for exactly one task: the annoying one where you have a bunch of files with no naming or attribute similarity you can express easily, and you want to do the same thing to each of them. Point-and-click file managers are really useful for that. (Just not for anything else I've found.)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:29 UTC (Mon) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

... now if only they had been of the "gather list of files and spit it on stdout when asked" variety... I.e. usable in form of LIST=`select_files` from shell. Or even LIST=`select_files "$LIST"`, while we are at it - providing the initial set to be edited that way.

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 14:26 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yeah. Sunrise Commander can do that (unsurprising, as dired, which it's based on, can also do that). However, as an Emacs package it naturally emits the result as a Lisp list. Probably not so useful for you!

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 24, 2012 20:42 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

Try zenity --file-selection or zenity --list for that… (Or use dialog if you want to stay in your terminal.)

File Browser? Who needs it?

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:08 UTC (Mon) by njwhite (guest, #51848) [Link]

Likewise. The direction of Nautilus sounds reasonable to me, but I'll be sticking to ls, mv, cp and friends. It suprises me that file managers are more useful to many technical people than the command line, but perhaps they just need to do different things to me.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 8:37 UTC (Sat) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

Thanks to Ubuntu gnome become quite important, but it seems some stupid morons started to do stupid things. Do they want gnome to become irrelevant (like in the pre-Ubuntu times) or do they just want to turn Ubuntu developers life into some nightmare?

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 9:30 UTC (Sat) by liw (subscriber, #6379) [Link]

I love me some well-argued, finely crafted, exquisitely worded, fact-based constructive criticism early in the morning.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:52 UTC (Sat) by Rehdon (guest, #45440) [Link]

Stupid moron is who stupid moron does! XD

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 8:52 UTC (Sun) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

The fact is a lot of gnome2 users switched to KDE or XFCE when gnome3 came out. Another fact is current gnome3 users complain a lot about nautilus changes. This just proves how stupid some developers are and this proves they want to make Ubuntu life harder.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 10:14 UTC (Sun) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Do you grasp the fact that Ubuntu does not ship GNOME3 as its default desktop?

It might explain why your post has caused so much unintentional hilarity.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:47 UTC (Mon) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

The talk was about Gnome2 if you didn't notice. Gnome3 is the least popular environment compared to KDE and Unity.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:55 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

The "talk" was:

> Thanks to Ubuntu gnome become quite important, but it seems
> some stupid morons started to do stupid things. Do they want
> gnome to become irrelevant (like in the pre-Ubuntu times) or
> do they just want to turn Ubuntu developers life into some nightmare?

How can you argue that "thanks to Ubuntu gnome become quite important [sic]" when Ubuntu doesn't ship GNOME3 by default? Similarly, how can you argue that "Ubuntu developers life" will become a nightmare because of GNOME3? Have you heard of this thing called Unity? That is what Ubuntu developers are working on, not GNOME3.

Have you even used GNOME3, or are you just using Unity without knowing the difference? This is a serious question.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:53 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Ubuntu had been shipping (by default) a somewhat polished version of GNOME2 for a long time. And yes, that helped GNOME's popularity.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 16:22 UTC (Sat) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

Gnome wasn't irrelevant in pre-Ubuntu times, having been used by Red Hat as their primary desktop since 1999. "October Gnome" through the end of the 1.x series was quite nice.

The unhappiness didn't start until Gnome 2 arrived, and Ubuntu didn't happen until after that.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 4, 2012 20:06 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Gnome 1x w as a terrible terrible mess. 2x was much better, but people blasted gnome devs for the changes and dumbing down the interface.

Now people are blasting gnome devs again because I guess now gnome 2 is all of a sudden wonderful now the gnome devs are no longer working on it.

People need to cut the f-ing drama already. It isn't helping there case and I do not blame gnome devs being sensitive to 'tone' considering the massive shit they take every time they make a minor change. When people take every mention of gnome in any article on any website as a opportunity to act like children and say that the sky is falling it makes it really difficult to tell what is legit complaints and what is just people fuming with some alternate motive.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 2:44 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> Now people are blasting gnome devs again because I guess now gnome 2 is all of a sudden wonderful now the gnome devs are no longer working on it.

This is completely misleading. Gnome 2 was at very high version when it was discontinued, which means that there were many iterations before it became good and mature. This actually shows that people were objective. Once the product became good, they praised it.

> People need to cut the f-ing drama already. It isn't helping there case and I do not blame gnome devs being sensitive to 'tone' considering the massive shit they take every time they make a minor change.

Minor change?

How is introduction of overview a minor change? How is complete lack of visibility a minor change? How is more cumbersome mouse/graphical UI a minor change? How is total inability to customise a minor change?

> When people take every mention of gnome in any article on any website as a opportunity to act like children and say that the sky is falling it makes it really difficult to tell what is legit complaints and what is just people fuming with some alternate motive.

Easy. Just _listen_ to _objectively_ argued complaints. Ignore the rest.

What infuriates me the most is "philosophical" nonsense regarding UI design being pushed by Gnome developers.

Example of a "philosophical" goal: minimise distraction. Sure, some people like to avoid distraction. Fine. Give them the ability to do that. Some others thrive on it. They want lots of small windows and notifications flying everywhere. They are digressive multi-taskers. So, give them _that_.

So, instead of minimal distraction "philosophy", there should be a purely functional "desired flexibility" goal. Then users would not complain. Just like they stopped by the end of Gnome 2 series, when everyone could do their tasks, while making their desktop the way they wanted it to be.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 4:36 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> Easy. Just _listen_ to _objectively_ argued complaints. Ignore the rest.

So when the Gnome Devs attempt to do that by telling people to stick to technical issues in bugtracks and filter blog posts don't go around accusing them of purposely filtering input to create some sort of isolation bubble of positive feedback.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 4:52 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

I think you may have confused a few posters here. I never accused anyone of doing that.

However, I do think that many Gnome developers do not accept or listen to valid, objective and constructive criticism of real usability issues they introduced in version 3.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:56 UTC (Tue) by walters (subscriber, #7396) [Link]

The feedback cycle is pretty broken, for sure; in multiple ways. It's often hard to extract signal from noise, and in the end, not everyone can be happy.

The most important thing, cheesy as it sounds, is just to try to stay constructive.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:02 UTC (Mon) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

> Gnome 1x w as a terrible terrible mess.

I'm not sure what you mean. Releases prior to 1.0.53 were unstable, to the point of being unusable, but it worked well enough after that.

From a design standpoint it was a bit incohesive, but I prefer that to what came after.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 8:53 UTC (Sun) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

Red Hat is and was irrelevant on desktops. Even if we count it, gnome2 had much smaller market share than KDE in pre-Ubuntu times.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 5, 2012 21:07 UTC (Sun) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

Can you provide the methodology for how you are doing the counting where you come to that conclusion?

Counting linux usage is a pretty difficult thing to get correct. Counting specific desktop environment usage even more so. So if you are going to be making comparative claims as to market penetration, please describe the analysis process and data sources you are using to generate the numbers. Without some sort of published methodology, any the credibility of any claim with regard to market impact is difficult to assess.

-jef

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:09 UTC (Mon) by fb (subscriber, #53265) [Link]

Somehow I have the impression that your standards wouldn't be set so high if the GP poster was complaining about Ubuntu.

IIRC the Linux Journal popularity polls consistently gave KDE more than 2/3 of the Linux desktop users preferences. Those polls were not perfect, but AFAIK they were the best we had to measure project popularity.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:28 UTC (Mon) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Maybe, but at least personally, the impression was that GNOME had always been regarded as "the" free software desktop environment, resulting both from the support of the most important Linux distribution (Red Hat then Ubuntu, with Debian neutral), as well as the fact that Qt was initially non-free and in general did not mesh much with free software conventions.

And that's why the destruction of GNOME by their current maintainers is so irksome: they devastated the trademark that once was the reference for the free software community, and are the cause of the current unprecedented fragmentation of efforts and mindshare into XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity and KDE.

In addition to that, they also fragmented the underlying technology panorama by introducing a GTK 3 that isn't a smooth upgrade from GTK 2 (e.g. GTK 2 themes don't work with GTK 3), and introduced Clutter, which due to the OpenGL requirement cannot currently be used in low-overhead virtualization and thus cannot be used in a non-niche desktop.

Overall, the GNOME 3 effort has probably been the biggest setback for the Linux desktop ever, a true catastrophe without equals.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:14 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> the cause of the current unprecedented fragmentation of efforts and mindshare into XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity and KDE.

Yeah, the latest and rather visible cause for sure. I was hoping that with the introduction of freedesktop.org, the fragmentation would diminish. No such luck for now, I'm afraid... :-(

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:03 UTC (Mon) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

I try to be very consistent with my call for methodology.

Thanks for the LJ reader's choice awards reference.

Looking back at the pre 2006 readers choice awards, KDE was indeed consistently polling higher

2000:
RHL top distro
KDE top DE

2001:
RHL top distro
KDE top DE

2002:
Mandake top distro (RHL second)
KDE top DE

2003:
Debian top distro (RHL second)
KDE top DE

2004:
Debian top distro (Mandrake second, Gentoo third)
KDE top DE

2005
Ubuntu top distro (CentOS second, Fedora third)
KDE top DE

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:56 UTC (Mon) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

There were polls and the most important distributions were shipping KDE3 as a default environment. Then came Ubuntu and gnome become more popular. If you want to prove it wasn't like that feel free to do so. Todays, Ubuntu doesn't ship gnome3 and it's the least popular desktop (ignoring some tiny ones). Btw. you're biased.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 8:14 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

From https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680118#c34

> I already expressed my opinion on this - I don't see type-ahead find coming back.

Oof. Maybe Cosmo has one hell of a trick up his sleeve. What he describes sounds large, unreliable, and not very well thought out.

It seems Gnome's UI difficulties have only just begun. Owell, hope it all works out.

McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]

Posted Aug 6, 2012 11:04 UTC (Mon) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

Too bad there are many Trojan horses in the gnome camp. Trolls are desirable, but Trojan horses don't fit too well to fairy tells of design absurds.

Linux Mint team forks Nautilus

Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:44 UTC (Mon) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

This story has another chapter:

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Linux-Mint-team-forks-Nautilus-1660545.html

Linux Mint team forks Nautilus

Posted Aug 9, 2012 18:43 UTC (Thu) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Also, Ubuntu is apparently going to drop Nautilus.

I wonder if that's going to be enough for Red Hat managers to finally realize what sorts of braindead morons they employ as GNOME maintainers and sack them all.

Probably not though, I guess they'll only realize when their customers tell them once they try a new RHEL release with GNOME 3.

Insults aren't welcome here

Posted Aug 9, 2012 20:07 UTC (Thu) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

Please stop with the gratuitous insults. It's clear you don't like GNOME and the GNOME developers, but please take 'braindead morons' and other things like it elsewhere.

thanks,

jake

Insults aren't welcome here

Posted Aug 9, 2012 20:25 UTC (Thu) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

At least give it a credit for really vicious self-insult in every signed posting...


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