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Posted Jul 16, 2012 16:51 UTC (Mon) by marduk (guest, #3831)
Parent article: Left by Rawhide

You should take a good look at Gentoo. Gentoo, IMO, offers the best of both worlds (well, 3 world). Where they have "stable" "testing" and "overlay" (or 3rd party) repositories for software.

For example, if you are GNOME user in the stable tree you are running gnome 2.32. If you are in the testing tree you are using GNOME 3.4 (well, most of it). And if you are on the gnome overlay you are running some parts of 3.5. Best off, you can mix and match these (to some degree). Let's say you want to run GNOME 3 but want to stick with a "stable" kernel, you can do that. Gentoo also keeps multiple versions of the same package at a time, so it essentially allows you to "downgrade" certain packages. For example, a few days ago I updated to gtk-3.5 and discovered it broke a lot of things that my mostly GNOME 3.4 system utilized. I simply "masked" the 3.5* versions of gtk and then did an update, and it downgraded me to the latest gtk-3.4*. When I feel safe/brave, I can later unmask gtk-3.5 and try it again.

It also allows you to experiment with stuff and go back fairly easily. For example I wanted to play with systemd so I changed some USE flags and converted my system to systemd, rebooted my system and there I was running a systemd. I did live with systemd for a few days until i decided there were still some things that needed work (e.g. sometimes when I boot I cannot log in... it seems like some services are not being started or starting in the wrong order). So I'm giving up on systemd for now, went back to Gentoo's openrc (I just created a new USE file for systemd, so I just had to move that file out of the way), reboot again, and I'm back on openrc. I'll try systemd in another month or so once the devs have it better integrated.

You can also stick with a mostly stable system but run a few things from the unstable tree (e.g. you always want the latest Postgres of the latest Firefox). You can even run "live" ebuilds (packages that pull straight from upstream's vcs and builds them on-the-fly) if you are brave.

Gentoo makes this all easy (well, easy if you now Gentoo). And you start to feel more like *you* are in control of what's on your system instead of what the distro's developers or some build bot decides you're going to be running.

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Posted Jul 16, 2012 18:06 UTC (Mon) by nikarul (subscriber, #4462) [Link] (5 responses)

I'll second this recommendation. I've been running Gentoo much like our editor has been running Rawhide these past few years. Every once in awhile things break, sometimes spectacularly, and it definitely keeps your system diagnosis skills sharp. But for the most part, it works very well and gives you a more control over what's going onto your system.

I will add a couple caveats. Obviously this requires a system which good CPU and memory resources for the amount of package building you do. And I do maintain a rather large RAM drive for building all but the largest packages (I'm looking at you, Libre Office). I've had more than one hard drive fall in the past to the onslaught that is 'emerge -uDv world'.

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Posted Jul 16, 2012 21:50 UTC (Mon) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (3 responses)

Every once in awhile things break, sometimes spectacularly, and it definitely keeps your system diagnosis skills sharp. But for the most part, it works very well and gives you a more control over what's going onto your system.

I haven't used a traditional Linux distribution in over 10 years; I've been using Linux from Scratch followed by Gentoo. It's difficult for me to remember what it's like not to have that control.

Do regular distributions break less frequently than Gentoo or do they just break in different ways?

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 1:45 UTC (Tue) by kenmoffat (guest, #4807) [Link]

Hmm, as a Linux from Scratch (and Beyond-*) user and editor, I've often broken my builds when updating. Occasionally,I even have to use multiple-version workarounds (currently, older ffmpeg for transcode, which we've now dropped, and gst-ffmpeg [ yes, I know that gst-ffmpeg devs dislike using system ffmpeg, but their version of ffmpeg was *so* old last time I looked).

I've also seen problems in specific packages (e.g. abiword with some past versions of libxml2). So, I expect that from time to time there will be *some* breakage on my desktop. But, that's "my system, my rules, my breakage."

I don't expect my changes in the books to break functionality - if they do, I try to fix the problem. I had assumed that all distros took a similar "we don't deliberately break it, but if it's broken we will try to fix it" attitude. Sounds as if I'm too much of an optimist.

ĸen

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 13:25 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

I run Gentoo on my android tablet (arm) in a chroot. I even compiled libreoffice. Together with a keyboard-case it makes a fine laptop.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 15:11 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

> It's difficult for me to remember what it's like not to have that control

It feels exactly the same.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 10:29 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

> Obviously this requires a system which good CPU and memory resources for the amount of package building you do.

I run Gentoo on my atom boxes (netbook, nettop). It works fine. (Anecdotally, better [faster/cooler] than prebuilt distros, perhaps due to -Os -march=atom Could be confirmation bias, though). Just don't expect huge things (kernel, mozilla, LibreOffice) to compile instantly.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 6:50 UTC (Tue) by djc (subscriber, #56880) [Link]

+1. It sounds like Gentoo would fit the bill for what you need quite well. The unstable Gentoo tree gets very new stuff, but there are a lot of people who actually run the unstable tree (including many of the devs), so I doubt most things would remain broken that long. As others noted, it's also relatively easy to run a stable tree (which should still be relatively modern), with granular settings to decide what you want to pick up from the unstable tree.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 7:56 UTC (Tue) by gnu_andrew (guest, #49515) [Link] (9 responses)

This is exactly why I use Gentoo. It baffles me how people can handle having a regular slew of new binary blobs to update to, with no idea of the changes contained within. I guess I just don't trust developers that much with my system, and experience has generally proved me correct.

For me, there are two models I can work with; the Gentoo model, which is close to how I believe FOSS should work, giving you full control over which updates to bring in and allowing you to create your own unique system, and the RHEL/Debian Stable model, which is like a FOSS Windows/MacOS model where everything stays visibly the same (bar security updates and major fixes) and then you choose some apocalyptic moment to do that big upgrade to the new shiny major version. Fedora, Ubuntu, etc have something in between which just doesn't work for me.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 11:56 UTC (Tue) by jwakely (subscriber, #60262) [Link]

> It baffles me how people can handle having a regular slew of new binary blobs to update to, with no idea of the changes contained within.

Would you prefer if the people writing kernel drivers for you, or writing the compiler you use, or breaking your desktop environment for you, stopped doing that because they spent their time reviewing all the code in the updates to their own systems? (OK, maybe the desktop guys ;-)

As someone who produces FOSS as well as consuming it I spend far too much of my own time working on a single project, I have no desire to review all the other projects I rely on. I'd rather just take the updates and live with the occasional fits of rage when something seemingly stupid gets done to my system!

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 15:57 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (5 responses)

> It baffles me how people can handle having a regular slew of new binary blobs to update to, with no idea of the changes contained within.

Generally speaking people keep change logs.

> I guess I just don't trust developers that much with my system, and experience has generally proved me correct.

So the developers that write your software are not good enough to compile it?

What a bizarre concept.

And the developers that write the scripts you use to compile everything, and blindly download and execute via portage, are going to do a much better job?

> For me, there are two models I can work with; the Gentoo model, which is close to how I believe FOSS should work, giving you full control over which updates to bring in and allowing you to create your own unique system,

I don't want full control. I want to hand control over to people that are competent and know what they are doing better then myself. Instead of micromanaging everything I want to only be forced to manage what really matters to me and the task at hand.

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Posted Jul 18, 2012 20:24 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (4 responses)

I don't want full control. I want to hand control over to people that are competent and know what they are doing better then myself.

And that's a fundamental difference that you'll never resolve by arguing about it. I'm a control freak -- I got involved with computers in the first place (aged six) entirely because the things were perfect servants that will do precisely what you ask (as long as you can describe it well enough) and can in principle be completely understood. As a consequence, I consider binary-package distros to be a violation of the fundamental reason I use computers in the first place -- control.

But I'm also quite aware that most people just consider the things tools, not totally controllable havens, and I can understand why if you think of your computer as a tool you might be willing to prioritize things that make it a better tool over control issues you don't care about.

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Posted Jul 20, 2012 5:28 UTC (Fri) by dirtyepic (guest, #30178) [Link] (3 responses)

Well put. When I first started using Linux I tried several binary distros but I kept finding myself attempting to compile mplayer from source and installing gcc prereleases. After a few Linux From Scratch installs I realized I would never be able to maintain an entire distro on my own and still have time for extracurricular activities like sleeping. So I switched to Gentoo, where I can focus my attention on what interests me and leave the rest to be managed by someone else who knows a lot more about those areas.

Gentoo is a distro for the obsessive compulsive. Most people don't get it, and they never will, and that's fine.

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Posted Jul 20, 2012 12:42 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

When I first started using Linux I tried several binary distros but I kept finding myself attempting to compile mplayer from source and installing gcc prereleases. After a few Linux From Scratch installs I realized I would never be able to maintain an entire distro on my own and still have time for extracurricular activities like sleeping.

And they say free software is not a drug. :)

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Posted Jul 20, 2012 22:49 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

Meh. With Debian you also have control over the parts that you find interesting, you can compile from source and generate your own packages, but the default is to leave things alone. To our beloved editor: do not listen to these guys, for regular obsessive people Gentoo.gets old pretty quick. You sound like you want Debian testing, all of the fun but little unpredictability!

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Posted Jul 21, 2012 3:16 UTC (Sat) by dirtyepic (guest, #30178) [Link]

It was between Debian and Gentoo and maybe Slackware, but Gentoo's install was closer to LFS' so I tried it first. Now they made me a developer so I suppose I should stick around. For what it's worth, I agree that our editor would probably be happier with Debian or another of the suggestions.

Some people buy a boat to relax. Some people build one in their basement. In the end it's just personal preference.

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Posted Jul 17, 2012 17:19 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> It baffles me how people can handle having a regular slew of new binary blobs to update to, with no idea of the changes contained within.

If you are just blindly compiling the source you download without a detailed audit than there is no functional or security difference. It sounds like you are ascribing magical properties to the source code, as if compiling makes your system more "pure".

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Posted Jul 18, 2012 3:24 UTC (Wed) by AngryChris (subscriber, #74783) [Link]

It sounds like he's going to end up here: http://funroll-loops.info/

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Posted Jul 20, 2012 14:20 UTC (Fri) by andika (guest, #47219) [Link]

Interesting alternative. Seems that I have to try Gentoo for GNOME dev build test. Let's see if my build trial on Fedora Rawhide, Debian Sid, and OpenSUSE 12 got stuck, Gentoo won't.