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US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

The Register reports that the US Navy has signed off on an almost $28 million contract from military contractor Raytheon to install Linux ground control software for its fleet of vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) drones. "As for those worried over GPL licensing, the US Department of Defense is well ahead of you. The DOD has already issued guidelines on the use of open source code in its systems, and says the matter is in hand. "The US government can directly combine GPL and proprietary/classified software into a single program arbitrarily, as long as the result is never conveyed outside the U.S. government, but this approach should not be taken lightly," it states. "When taking this approach, contractors hired to modify the software must not retain copyright or other rights to the result (else the software would be conveyed outside the US government.)" (Thanks to Phil Endecott)
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US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 11, 2012 22:06 UTC (Mon) by AlleyTrotter (guest, #72997) [Link]

One simple but very large question.
Will MS still control the UEFI on these boxes?

LOL
john

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 0:47 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Good question.

How much money will go to MS for every Linux-powered computer?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 6:07 UTC (Tue) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

I think the US Navy has enough money to ensure that it owns the keys in the drones' embedded motherboards (if they even use UEFI firmware).

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 6:29 UTC (Tue) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link]

Don't assume that just because they have a lot of money to spend that necessarily translates into competence of any kind.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 13:23 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Especially if they did nothing to earn it.

for the record,

I find the use of drones against civilian populations, especially by the USA CIA and State Department, to be utterly abhorrent.

Probably violates international laws in a number of different ways (not that I care to much personally about that in comparison to other more significant moral issues.) Such as using civilian contractors and government employees to operate military weapons against unarmed people.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 18:55 UTC (Tue) by raf (guest, #35151) [Link]

> ... drones' embedded motherboards ...

I think they're talking about the ground systems, not the flight systems. Linux is common for ground-control computers and less common for flight software.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 10:56 UTC (Tue) by AlleyTrotter (guest, #72997) [Link]

Let me add one more question.
Will I be able to buy one of these boxes being supplied to the Navy?
I guess no one could actually answer that one except Raytheon.
How about it anyone from Raytheon out there?
john

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 15:13 UTC (Tue) by pflugstad (subscriber, #224) [Link]

I am NOT a Raytheon employee, but I have some visibility into how US DoD contracts work.

These are NOT "commercial" boxes, so no, you won't be able to buy one.

The Navy contract almost certainly will specify that Raytheon will deliver N (168+spares) boxes with capability Y (UAV ground control station).

Raytheon will probably buy the basic parts (motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc) from white box suppliers, likely using industrial/military grade parts and boards. Given that, I'd be surprised if these boards had UEFI at all - industrial/military suppliers typically spend as little as possible on the BIOS, so unless it's necessary to simply boot the box, they won't include it.

Raytheon will build N+M boxes where M is whatever they need to test and for spares, but no more. All N will be delivered to the Navy. The software will likely be owned by the US Govt.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 11:12 UTC (Wed) by JanC_ (subscriber, #34940) [Link]

Instead of buying and assembling white box parts, I'd expect them to buy standard or custom rugged computers & displays from a company like Barco, then add custom software & peripherals... (Barco has sold these devices to US navy contractors before, and they had to be delivered with linux back then too).

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:40 UTC (Tue) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

The motherboard vendor controls it, really. Same as UEFI (they don't have to implement UEFI secure boot if they don't want to), and same as BIOS, where your entire boot sequence is controlled by Phoenix, AMI, etc.

(Before anyone replies about Coreboot, it's just not statistically relevant, sorry.)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 4:31 UTC (Tue) by magfr (subscriber, #16052) [Link]

I think the GPL and use of the code in mutions gives some rather absurd situations.

Assume that someone fires a cruise missile on you and that there is a GPL component in the cruise missile.

Further assume that the missile is a dud. Ain't you lucky?

Now, you have recieved a device with a copy of GPL software, and we can assume that you aren't part of the senders organization, so I suppose there have to be a written offer somewhere on the missile where you could ask for a copy of the software.

What happens if you exercise your rights? The GPL does not say that the sender can't send a commando team to deliver your code (and execute you) so would you dare to use the rights? (Incidentally I think it do say that they can't charge you for the commando team but that is not much help in this situation)

Is this a loophole in the GPL?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 4:37 UTC (Tue) by tnoo (subscriber, #20427) [Link]

Sounds like a Monty Python sketch, very funny.

Linux distribution

Posted Jun 12, 2012 4:40 UTC (Tue) by tnoo (subscriber, #20427) [Link]

"Linux Distribution" get's a whole new meaning.

Linux distribution

Posted Jun 12, 2012 7:12 UTC (Tue) by spaetz (subscriber, #32870) [Link]

But Linux world domination can be admittedly achieved much easier this way...

Linux distribution

Posted Jun 12, 2012 23:44 UTC (Tue) by Pc5Y9sbv (guest, #41328) [Link]

No, "end user" gets a whole new meaning...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 5:21 UTC (Tue) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]

If Iran captures one of such drones. Is Iran entitled to the source?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:27 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

No, because the US would regard the capture of the drone as theft. Even stuff that the US leaves behind intentionally isn't automatically the property of the recipient, so when one's country gets littered with cluster bombs, the US is presumably responsible for the de-mining bill and any littering penalties, although expect the goalposts to move when the stuff left behind isn't militarily sensitive and/or is hazardous and expensive to clean up.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 14:34 UTC (Tue) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

Well, the address is exactly specified somewhere, so it cannot be a theft, they only perform the act of opening the attachment to an unusual form of distribution. However, since they most likely redistribute the code to their northern neighbor, there might be a problem if there is any trade secrets.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 19:12 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

What address? In any case, the equipment remains the property of the US military at all times, at least in their eyes, so they can always claim ownership even if someone else actually has it in their possession.

You could think of it as something like a Tivo box, but without even the acknowledgement that someone else is allowed to operate the software.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 5:06 UTC (Wed) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

Also, Iran, unlike most countries, has zero formal agreement with the United States regarding copyrights.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-United_States_copyrigh...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 11:24 UTC (Wed) by JanC_ (subscriber, #34940) [Link]

And all this because the US has vetoed Iran's requests to become a member of the WTO for decades...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 6:00 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Looks like you're right.

from http://www.cendi.gov/publications/04-8copyright.html

> 5.1.1 Does the U.S. Government have any special rights to use copyrighted
> material?
>
> No, the U.S. Government can be held liable for violation of the Copyright
> Laws. Congress has expressly provided that a work protected by the
> Copyright Laws can be infringed by the United States (28 USC §
> 1498(b))117. The exclusive action for such infringement is an action by
> the copyright owner against the United States in the Court of Federal
> Claims for the recovery of monetary damages. However, there is no
> contributory copyright infringement on the part of the Government because
> it hasn't waived sovereign immunity rights. (John C. Boyle, 200 F.3d 1369
> (Fed. Cir. 2000)118.
>
> While the Government may rely on fair use, the use of materials by the
> Government is not automatically a fair use. The U.S. Department of
> Justice, Office of Legal Counsel, has stated in a U.S. Department of
> Justice opinion dated April 30, 1999,119 that "while government
> reproduction of copyrighted material for governmental use would in many
> contexts be non-infringing because it would be a 'fair use' under 17 USC §
> 107, there is no 'per se' rule under which such government reproduction of
> copyrighted material invariably qualifies as a fair use."

Now I guess we get to argue over whether extrajudicial executions constitue "fair use." I wonder what the MPAA's position would be?

Also, if the source comes with a commando squad attached, that hardly seems to be the "preferred form."

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 6:15 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Actually, I thought about this a little more and I think they're taking the view that sending the drones on a mission doesn't constitute "distribution." So they should be ok.

yeah... I'm definitely taking your post a little too seriously... heh.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 7:19 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think so. The question here is intent, and the intent of someone launching a missile at you is that the missile should explode. This would naturally deny you any use of the code running on the missile, and should probably not be counted as distribution (just as it is not counted as a gift of very expensive hardware to the target). Since distribution was not intended by the sender, I don't see how copyright law could apply. (Also, arguing legalities like that with someone who can launch missiles is unwise in some jurisdictions: even in the US, 'no-one ever got rich suing city hall'.)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 10:06 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

I'm not so sure intent-based arguing works for anyone else than missile owners though...

"But your honour, I only intended to use that public ftp server as a backup of my music/film/software collection, it wasn't intended as filesharing"

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 11:00 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

How about a private ftp server with an easy to guess user and password combination such as anonymous/anonymous or maybe admin/admin. Or perhaps you leave the door to your house(dorm room) unlocked and someone makes a copy of your data without your express permission. We can cut this line of argument as thin as we want to...and still not have avoided the inevitable situation of having to watch something go to court to create precedent.

End of the day, The US government is in a unique position in that it can redefine the rules for itself at the drop of a hat. Already there are clauses in the US code which set statutory limits on damages the federal government can pay as well to a US citizen who makes an infringement claim. And in fact those clauses actually define a concept of willful intent to set the damage aware(so yes intent does come into play to some extent). However compared to the cost of the lost munition itself, the maximum capped damage award is really not that big of a cost. I fully expect that if the issue of munitions (or generally captured US military equipment) comes up for discussion in a court room Congress will feel the urge to carve this out as an explicit fair-use case without losing much sleep over it.

The DoD is doing the bulk of protecting itself by demanding contractors hand over ownership of any proprietary code to the Defense Department instead of holding on to it as a contractor. Which is interesting...

But the real question I have, and I'm sure this will actually be put to the test at some point is the following. Is the federal government really one entity or does distribution clauses latch when one governmental agency hands code to another agency? Is the Defense department itself one entity? Handing code between the Navy and the Airforce..does that latch the distribution clause? They have their own separate logistics and r&d budgets..managed as separate from a day-to-day logistics pov. If they share it with Homeland...is it distribution? I'm really not sure that the federal government can be view as one entity for the purposes of distribution. I'm not even sure the DoD should be view that way...considering how compartmentalized and resource competitive each agency inside the DoD is with the others.

-jef

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 11:22 UTC (Tue) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

Presumably the US Navy has no qualms distributing the source to the US Air Force...

Entities

Posted Jun 12, 2012 14:13 UTC (Tue) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

I don't see how the Federal Government is any less a single entity than a large corporation like IBM is, no matter how much individual divisions might compete for resources.

Entities

Posted Jun 13, 2012 5:27 UTC (Wed) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

I don't see how the Human Race is any less a single entity than a diverse species like dogs are, no matter how much individual sovereigns might compete for resources.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 16:08 UTC (Tue) by xtifr (subscriber, #143) [Link]

Intent-based arguing always works. The problem is showing your intent is what you say it is. Your actual behavior is generally considered a stronger indicator of your actual intent than your words--people often make excuses when facing prosecution.

In the case of your ftp site, the fact that you set it up for public access is likely to be a strong counter-argument to your claim that it was for personal use. Especially if it can be shown that you knew how to set up a private ftp site and/or the plaintiffs can find any evidence that you revealed the site's existence to others.

Intent is why "loopholes" in the GPL, like distributing patches-only, generally don't work (ask NeXT about this one).

On the flip side, with the missiles, if the enemy capturing a missile and reverse-engineering it were to count as distribution, then it probably wouldn't be safe to use any software except BSD-licensed. Microsoft would be no happier about having their code copied than a GPL author.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:01 UTC (Tue) by freemars (subscriber, #4235) [Link]

The question here is intent, and the intent of someone launching a missile at you is that the missile should explode.
...
should probably not be counted as distribution

The intent is widespread distribution. Clearly a violation.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 16:39 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

High speed, high pressure distribution. It will make you yearn for the days that the GPL was merely viral.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 10:03 UTC (Tue) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link]

It is not distribution all right, but is it conveyance?
> To “convey” a work means any kind of propagation that enables other parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.
Else they have to limit the drone/missile to GPL v2 only (unless they claim it is a "Mere interaction with a user")... -:)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 5:29 UTC (Wed) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

Merely interacting with the user's ability to continue living ;)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 7:58 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

(Incidentally I think it do say that they can't charge you for the commando team but that is not much help in this situation)

They can charge you, but no more than "reasonable". Anybody knows how much is a commando mission these days?

From the GPL v.3:
"6.b) Convey the object code in, or embodied in, a physical product (including a physical distribution medium), accompanied by a written offer, valid for at least three years and valid for as long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product model, to give anyone who possesses the object code either (1) a copy of the Corresponding Source for all the software in the product that is covered by this License, on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange, for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source, or (2) access to copy the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge."

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 10:07 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

I don't think you could argue that a commando team constitutes "a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange" though...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 13:33 UTC (Tue) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

Never underestimate the physical, durable nature of a commando team carrying backup tapes.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 14, 2012 16:07 UTC (Thu) by Mity (guest, #85011) [Link]

I believe every commando member makes his best to be as durable as possible.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 10:40 UTC (Tue) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

I can't see any loophole here. US Navy has mainly two options:

  1. Send another missile containing the source code.
  2. Have the source code embedded in any missile in the first place.

The latter option is cheaper, the former option is preferable from a military POV (second chance to kill your enemy a.k.a. innocent children).

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:06 UTC (Tue) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link]

Leaving aside both the humor and the inflammatory comments about intentionally targeting children, you all do realize that

1) the drones in this instance are actually reconnaissance platforms, not warhead-carrying missiles, and their intended use involves them returning to their launching site rather than exploding, and

2) the Linux software in question is for ground control, and therefore presumably will stay at the ground control site in Maryland rather than actually being loaded onto the drones themselves

... right?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:46 UTC (Tue) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

My comment was not related to the original article about drones, but a response to the question of magfr, whether there is a problem in using GPLed software in missiles. My reference to the US Navy was, of course, out of that scope. Sorry, if this lead to misinterpretion.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:46 UTC (Tue) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link]

But if you capture enough drones,
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/12/more_on_the...
either illegally from the point of view of some US representatives;
or fully legally considering the point of view of the people actually living in the land;
you may want to duplicate the control center to use them, the GPL may then help you...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 14:35 UTC (Tue) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

From the article: "can also be fitted 70mm rockets as needed for other missions".

Presumably those are reconnaissance rockets then.

the /rocket/ isn't running Linux

Posted Jun 12, 2012 16:14 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

The drone is a reconnaissance vehicle, the 70mm rocket is a weapon.

It is quite normal for a reconnaissance mission to be armed. Military forces rarely perform reconnaissance missions on targets known to be friendly, that would be pointless. The distinction from an attack is that the primary _goal_ of the mission is to obtain information.

If they just want to blow something up from a long way away they don't need a drone, ballistic missiles have been available for more than half a century.

the /rocket/ isn't running Linux

Posted Jun 12, 2012 16:40 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

The CIA and Military have often retrofired their older "reconnaissance drones" drones to carry out strikes on targets.

Of course nowadays they have have given up the pretense and lies about the planned uses of unmanned drones, so these may really be just for reconnaissance. They have much larger and more powerful drones for carrying a wide variety of ordinance now then they had in the past.

Right now I expect they are aiming to eliminate the need for civilian contractors to handle the drones in a Xbox fashion. Maybe the goal with these is to explore and establish the procedures of more more autonomous craft. So they can reduce the number of operational people needed in large scale sorties. So before with older systems you'd need 20 operators for 10 drones you might get away with 20 operators for 200 or 300 drones.

As far as drones vs cruise missiles; I am sure that drones have a number of advantages over cruise missiles. One of them is, I expect, they can loiter over a area for long periods of time and be used to identify targets before striking. That way when they bomb a residence of 20 or 30 people the lawyers in the State Department and/or the Military can be reasonably sure that at least one of them is a likely target. Since hte drone is weaponized and already in the area you don't have to wait long before the approval process to finished before you carry out the actually attack. Another likely advantage is that larger drones can be used to carry multiple warheads and weapon platforms that will give them more flexibility and multiple strike capabilities that older more primitive cruise missiles lacked. Especially for 'soft targets'. And in addition they are re-usable so the total operational of cost over a period of months or years is much less then with using a long string of big cruise missiles.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 5:31 UTC (Wed) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

Linux also runs on MMU-less ultra-embedded platforms, of which it is used by NASA and the the like.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 15:37 UTC (Tue) by SiliconSlick (subscriber, #39955) [Link]

Assuming in either case that the vehicles(s) used were duds and failed to self-terminate/detonate, how receptive will the upstream distributor (the US Navy in this case) be about receiving updates via the same delivery vehicle (of course, with any software updates/fixes applied... e.g. bug #42393 - failed to detonate)???

I could see that leading to some very rapid development... at least in the short term.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 16:14 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

There is a third option: a single sheet of paper containing a written offer. If the source code is requested, it gets airdropped and/or delivered via commando-team distribution as suggested elsewhere in this thread. :)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:01 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

The US Navy will "mail" you a copy of the source on another missile, I guess. If the mechanism is good enough to convey the binary code, it should be good enough to convey the source. :)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 13:08 UTC (Tue) by Tara_Li (subscriber, #26706) [Link]

Well, it's not like the *device drivers* have to be GPL. Those are non-GPL loadable kernel modules.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 10:04 UTC (Wed) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

> Assume that someone fires a cruise missile on you and that there is a GPL component in the cruise missile.

Well there are using a GPLv2 kernel ... this does not imply that everything else is GPL.

They could as well just have a userspace application that has the "secret bits" which is using some proprietary license.

Also firing a missile is no way "distribution".

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Dec 5, 2012 14:16 UTC (Wed) by ekram (guest, #70515) [Link]

Stepping back a bit, does this situation also apply to something like an ATM cash machine?

If not, what's the difference?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 18:11 UTC (Tue) by jaldhar (guest, #7476) [Link]

Join us now or we'll share the software...

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 18:58 UTC (Tue) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]

I forwarded this story to LWN to see what the reaction from readers would be....

Personally, I feel sick at the thought that someone might have taken software that I wrote and used it to kill people. I've always thought this way about my contributions to free software projects and it has limited my contributions to "dual use" software like the kernel.

It has always surprised me that so few people seem to think this way, and that so little software is licensed in a way that attempts to control what it can be used for. Is this because developers actually support the use of their code in weapons? Is it because they haven't considered the possibility that this could happen? Is it because they consider the freedoms of free software to be more important than the right to not be blown up? Some other reasons?

Please share your thoughts.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 19:37 UTC (Tue) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

the problem is that when you start imposing "field of use" restrictions on your software, things get very ugly very quickly.

This is why licenses are not considered Open Source or Free Software if they do impose field of use restrictions.

And yes, this includes that they can be used by laser wielding sharks.

I know that it's fashionable nowdays to consider any military use evil, but there is a lot of technology that was developed for military uses that has resulted is great benefit for mankind (the Internet being one minor example)

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 23:34 UTC (Tue) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

In short, if you believe that the un-noticed use by a third party of your code for a use you don't approve of messes up your karma, then you're taking precisely the approach you should take: make sure your code it released under licences that permit you to impose field-of-use restrictions.

If that means that you must release it under a license which causes people not to want to use it as much, that's the price you pay.

It is my understanding that due diligence was put into whether field-of-use restrictions should be allowed into licenses under the OSI definition, but you could always check with ESR; he was there.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 20:15 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

> It is my understanding that due diligence was put into whether field-of-use restrictions should be allowed into licenses under the OSI definition, but you could always check with ESR; he was there.

I could not parse this sentence. Help?

anyway, for reference, OSD clause #6:

6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.

Rationale: The major intention of this clause is to prohibit license traps that prevent open source from being used commercially. We want commercial users to join our community, not feel excluded from it.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 15, 2012 2:57 UTC (Fri) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

"As far as I know, the people who decided what the OSI description of a valid "Open Source" license should look like exercised due diligence over whether field-of-use restrictions should disqualify a license from the definition, but if you want to know more about the depth of those discussions, Eric Raymond isn't hard to find to ask about it."

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 15, 2012 12:17 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

Thank you! (not a native to English language)

And yes, they exercised a lot of due diligence -- I am old enough to remember the discussions that lead to the OSI OSD and to the DFSG and associated Desert Island, Dissident, and Tentacles of Evil tests.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 21:22 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Is it because they consider the freedoms of free software to be more important than the right to not be blown up? Some other reasons?

People have the right not to be blown up--provided, naturally, that they're not trying to blow other people up--regardless of whatever you might choose to put in a software license. Writing "you may not use this software to violate others' rights" is superfluous, and just complicates matters for no reason. If you can't contribute to a project knowing that it might be twisted by someone else to cause harm, then you might as well give up on ever doing anything good for anyone.

Keep in mind that no matter what you put in the license, it's eventually going to become public domain. No matter how hard you try, you can't control it forever, and even if you could, it wouldn't prevent others from reimplementing the same thing under a different license. You're not going to stop any missiles from being launched by withholding militarily-neutral contributions to Linux. Just avoid areas whose use is predominantly aggressive.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 7:46 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

People have the right not to be blown up--provided, naturally, that they're not trying to blow other people up
Just wanted to point out how dangerous that argument is, when applied recursively. At this point, would it be OK to blow up the US army and the Nobel Peace Prize that orders the bombings where many innocent people have died? Have they lost their right not to be blown up? Logic would command that people keep their right not to be blown up, even after blowing other people up. How are the bombings going to stop otherwise?

The differences in opinion about moral issues are another reason that software licenses should better not include them.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 16:35 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> At this point, would it be OK to blow up the US army and the Nobel Peace Prize that orders the bombings where many innocent people have died? Have they lost their right not to be blown up?

I don't know about the Nobel Peace Prize, but certainly individual members of the U.S. Army have initiated a number of unprovoked attacks against non-aggressors. Their victims have a right to respond in kind. Note, however, that there is no "guilt by association"; not all members of the Army are aggressors, just those who participated in, or otherwise chose to contribute to, the attacks. An indiscriminate response would be as much aggression as the original attack.

> Logic would command that people keep their right not to be blown up, even after blowing other people up.

You're trying to argue that your conclusion is logical just because you don't like the alternative, which is a fallacy. Logic (in the form of the legal principle of estoppel) dictates that when some individual attacks you, they can make no logical argument that it would be wrong for you to attack them without condemning their own action--and if they can perform an action which they acknowledge to be wrong without inviting punishment, then there is no logical reason why you can't do the same to them.

> How are the bombings going to stop otherwise?

First, just because you have the right to respond in kind doesn't mean you are forced to do so. Second, responding in self-defense against an attacker is not equivalent to acting as the aggressor, and does not invite reprisal the way an initial, aggressive attack does. If you can initiate an attack then you can also respond to one, but the reverse is not necessarily true. Finally, there is the principle of proportional response to consider; the one who _escalates_ the attack is in the wrong, even if they were originally the victim.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 19:54 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

I think that many centuries of absurd rivalries between families (see Romeo and Juliet for a lyricized version, and there are many modern examples) have taught us that such an arithmetic of death does not always work out. Repaying in kind cannot always be done surgically (even in these modern times and with remote drones), there are errors and collateral victims, and those innocent bystanders have families who are not usually happy about it.

Morally, if not logically, the mere possibility of an innocent victim should preclude engaging in any further attacks. I very much prefer the way of dealing with IRA in UK (and now ETA in Spain) than with Al Qaeda. Of course it is very easy to talk when the victims do not come from your family; it has the most value when you know the victims. I read an article recently that seems appropriate: No, It Has Not 'Always Been This Way'.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 21:05 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Morally, if not logically, the mere possibility of an innocent victim should preclude engaging in any further attacks.

You have the right not to respond, if that is your wish. You can even try to persuade others to adopt your views. If someone does choose to respond, however, then that is _their_ right. They will be responsible for any consequences, intended or otherwise. If you tried to stand in their way, _you_ would be the aggressor, attacking without provocation.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 21:35 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

If someone does choose to respond, however, then that is _their_ right.
A curious kind of "right", not recognized by most legislations or even international treaties. Not to mention philosophical systems or even religions (anything more sophisticated than the code of Hammurabi or the Old Testament's "an eye for an eye"). I thought that the civilized world had agreed long ago that outlawing such vigilante practices was "progress", but apparently regressions happen outside software too.

Now I will take the liberty of recommending you a movie: The Beast of War (1988), about an earlier Afghanistan war.

Recursive argumentation

Posted Jun 13, 2012 22:37 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> A curious kind of "right", not recognized by most legislations or even international treaties.

That's not at all surprising. Legislatures and government representatives involved in treaties tend to ignore natural rights, since their very existence conflicts with them. They also like to deny people their inherent right to self-defense in order to make them more dependent.

> Not to mention philosophical systems or even religions....

Not that it matters, but you're glossing over quite a few philosophical systems here, modern and otherwise. The standard libertarian philosophy based on the Non-Aggression Principle, for example, or really _any_ system of natural rights which does not amount to pacifism, and thus must endorse self-defense to at least some degree. Even the ones which prohibit _personal_ self-defense still tend to allow for both restitution and, for cases of deliberate harm, retribution. They just require one to act through an intermediary (the state, in the form of civil and criminal law). In this case the state is committed to enforcing your rights in some ways (albeit poorly), while infringing on them in others.

Religions deal in right and wrong, not rights, so that's an entirely different issue. Whether it is right or wrong to respond in kind to an aggressive attack is orthogonal to whether the response is _justifiable_--whether the other party can object to the response without hypocrisy. The great thing about the estoppel approach to crime and punishment is that it doesn't matter whether the original action was right or wrong. You don't have to consider the _morality_ if it at all, which is what allows it to work objectively even when the individuals involved don't share a particular moral code. All that matters is that you can't logically object to someone else acting toward you just as you have chosen to act toward them.

Sophistic licenses

Posted Jun 12, 2012 23:31 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

In principle I share your concerns. However the alternative (limit uses via licensing) seems not only ridiculously ineffective but also legally dangerous.

To take this argument to the extreme, consider the JSON license: "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil". Who is going to judge if the license is being correctly used? The fact is that nobody recognizes that they are doing evil; at most they will say that they are "protecting their interests". Shall we leave this decision for a judge or for a jury? From this point of view it seems like a sophistic question.

Any such license is also scary from a legal point of view: if Crockford thinks that our particular use of JSON software is evil (e.g. because we use tabs to indent), is he going to come after us? Any organization with good legal counsel will avoid such "ethical" licenses like the plague, leaving poorly managed organizations and individuals. Perhaps good enough for MPlayer, but hardly for the Linux kernel or for Debian.

So in practice not limiting uses of software by ethics seems the best course of action. Even Stallman (an eminently political guy) does not want to limit uses of GPL code.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 8:10 UTC (Wed) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

There are a few problems

1) The big people are going to walk over your use restrictions anyways. The US government forced Wright brothers to share their airplane patent with others to ensure supply of planes for WW1. Rogue people meanwhile are just going to ignore your restrictions.

2) Defining "bad use" is tricky. some examples:

"may not be used for killing"

Would that ban use at euthanasia clinic or abortion clinic? How about a company that provides services to the clinics? etc.

"no army may use it"

So DARPA could not have used while developing internet. Meanwhile, Blackwater would had no problems using it.

3) "bad use" restrictions might become outdated. For example a OSS software had a restriction disallowing use in South Africa (Due to Apartheid). Apartheid went, but the restriction remained.

It gets really messy as soon as you have several programs with different use restrictions.

Hence, Debian (and later OSI) adopted that to be a free software license, the license may have no discrimination against people or fields of endeavor.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 16:00 UTC (Wed) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]

> There are a few problems

Yes, of course there are problems. What interests me is that the general view seems to be "there are problems, so we'll continue to write code that can be used in ways that we don't like".

The alternative, which I'd advocate, would be "there are problems, and unless or until someone smart fixes them we won't write or distribute code that can be used in ways that we don't like".

I am literally the only person who thinks this way?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 16:38 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> The alternative, which I'd advocate, would be "there are problems, and unless or until someone smart fixes them we won't write or distribute code that can be used in ways that we don't like".

This amount to, "we won't write or distribute code, ever." There is no general solution to the problems you're talking about, and certainly not in the form of a copyright license.

> I am literally the only person who thinks this way?

No, but fortunately this sort of block is exceedingly rare, or the free software movement would never have occurred in the first place.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 14, 2012 6:07 UTC (Thu) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

> The alternative, which I'd advocate, would be "there are problems, and unless or until someone smart fixes them we won't write or distribute code that can be used in ways that we don't like".

> I am literally the only person who thinks this way?

I think most people think that would be a noble position but a incredibly bad trade-off. Any restrictions you put on use of your code are based on law. But, the writer of law, government, can choose to change that at any time. Meanwhile, unlawful groups will ignore it. That's a fundamentally unfixable problem that no amount of smartness will help.

Ah irony. Internet? TCP/IP? ENIAC?

Posted Jun 15, 2012 21:07 UTC (Fri) by david.a.wheeler (subscriber, #72896) [Link]

Am I the only one who notices the irony in a discussion about preventing military use of software, using technologies developed by the military in the first place? The internet, including TCP/IP, was developed by military funding (DARPA). So, for that matter, was the ENIAC (the first general-purpose electronic computer).

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 20:50 UTC (Wed) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322) [Link]

I don't like the idea that my software might be used to kill people, but I'm not under the illusion that anything I put in my licence will have the slightest effect on that one way or the other. People will probably carry on blowing each other up, or not, regardless of what software I write and how I license it. Given that, it's a wash, and I might as well license things in a way that improves the chance that some minor good will come of it.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 21:27 UTC (Wed) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

My view is that if the military did not use my code, they would just spend more taxpayer money for an alternative.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 21:35 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

That, or someone would come up with a wheeze like passing a law exempting the government from honoring field-of-use restrictions.

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 12, 2012 19:00 UTC (Tue) by szoth (subscriber, #14825) [Link]

How is there not already a discussion of baby mulching in the comments for this article? Did we lose track of the Open BSD community somehow?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 13, 2012 7:12 UTC (Wed) by dakt (guest, #74570) [Link]

Will they add <void fire_missile(int num)> to kernel module or will it be embedded in user space?

US Navy buys Linux to guide drone fleet (The Register)

Posted Jun 14, 2012 20:28 UTC (Thu) by szoth (subscriber, #14825) [Link]

I'm pretty sure the idea is to embed the missile in meat-space.


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