The plumbing layer as the new kernel

Posted May 3, 2012 22:23 UTC (Thu) by cdmiller (guest, #2813)
In reply to: The plumbing layer as the new kernel by drag
Parent article: The plumbing layer as the new kernel

> Novel was expensive. Unix was expensive. NT was cheap. Guess what people flocked to?

> It's really not as clean cut as 'Leveraged the desktop'.

First MS introduced Windows 3.1 workgroups and killed off Artisoft pretty quickly, as well as taking over smaller file server shops. File and print server vendors took another hit when Windows95 came along and killed the ability to easily run windows desktops and applications from the file server (one of their main features). The non MS file and print server vendors were left playing catch up trying to implement any changes to the dos networking stack MS felt like making, there were undocumented interrupts, file locking issues, etc.. I call that leveraging the desktop to gain server market share. Price differential was a factor, but there were plenty of technical hurdles put in place as well. MS leveraged their desktop dominance to win major portions of the server space.

> Linux started as a desktop OS ...
> that is how we ended with Linux 2.6, which made it a very respectable
> replacement for Unix servers.

Ah, I saw linux gaining most traction in the server space. Sure us unix fans could get a workstation via linux on commodity hardware, but that was a niche group of users while lamp servers broke out and dominated the web server market well before 2.6 existed, primarily displacing unix installations for web hosting up through and beyond the 2000 bubble. Much of the whole compute cluster market was overtaken as well, remember beowulf cluster mania?

> Not really. It's like saying that Linux competes with Microsoft for text
> editing. File and print for desktops is extremely mundane stuff

Say what you will but linux does compete in that space mainly through samba and cups. Yes one will still use ad etc. to support the windows desktops.

> It has no such thing. Windows is massively more popular in thin client
> setups now. Linux is popular host OS for VDI installations on top of Xen
> and other things, but the guest desktops and protocols people use on
> their thin clients are largely Windows.

What I see is ltsp and friends in the thin client space. Yes with spice on kvm etc. windows is provided via linux, other than that the proprietary vdi solutions which are windows only are very expensive, where many times the reason to go thin client is $ driven.

> X Windows and Linux can be made to work in certain situations, but they
> are not competitive. Citrix has a huge lead.

Most of the thin client I see is lan fat client remote boot, read only nfs or cow nbd root. Kiosk or edu computer lab setups. I haven't seen citrix for a long time unless mentioned as xen, but certainly wan access via nx, spice, citrix would be better than straight x.

> Windows is still more popular depending on what type of system you are
> looking at.

Windows embedded? Really? Closest thing I've seen in a while are some wince devices and obsolete windows phones. Heck my 2 yr old lg tv came with an offer for the source code. It runs linux. Beyond the phones many of the arm devices are linux based, linux really is gaining in the embedded space.

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The plumbing layer as the new kernel

Posted May 4, 2012 13:14 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

> What I see is ltsp and friends in the thin client space. Yes with spice on kvm etc. windows is provided via linux, other than that the proprietary vdi solutions which are windows only are very expensive, where many times the reason to go thin client is $ driven.

It doesn't matter if they are very expensive. It works and people are willing to spend money on it. The initial cost of the VDI solution is often not going to be significant compared to other associated costs for deployment and management.

> Most of the thin client I see is lan fat client remote boot, read only nfs or cow nbd root. Kiosk or edu computer lab setups. I haven't seen citrix for a long time unless mentioned as xen, but certainly wan access via nx, spice, citrix would be better than straight x.

Well your personal experience is not inductive of what is happening at the world at large.

Ever seen advertisements on television or radio for things like "gotomypc" ? I am sure that more people use that service, alone, then all the entire LSTP or whatnot combined. It does stuff you simply cannot do easily with Linux. Nobody offers a comparible Linux solution.

Most people that would use VDI in corporations are not going to be aware of it. I really doubt that 95% of the people in my company right now realize that the vast majority of their applications are remote. The experience is completely seamless and integrates naturally into active directory and group policies.

Spice is nice, but it's not widely adopted and the Redhat management tools are unfortunately very expensive. Also Spice lacks a WAN profile, which makes it useful for LAN-only. I expect it will improve and it's already better then X Windows for remote desktops over LAN.

> Windows embedded? Really?

Absolutely.

> Closest thing I've seen in a while are some wince devices and obsolete windows phones.

You obviously don't know what Windows XP Embedded is. It is still very popular in POS, Koisks, "infotainment" devices and other such things.

> Heck my 2 yr old lg tv came with an offer for the source code. It runs linux. Beyond the phones many of the arm devices are linux based, linux really is gaining in the embedded space.

The embedded space is huge. Much larger then desktop or server space. Linux is extremely popular, but you have to be aware that there are lots of different segments.

The plumbing layer as the new kernel

Posted May 4, 2012 14:39 UTC (Fri) by cdmiller (guest, #2813) [Link]

> Ever seen advertisements on television or radio for things like
> "gotomypc" ? I am sure that more people use that service, alone, then
> all the entire LSTP or whatnot combined. It does stuff you simply cannot > do easily with Linux. Nobody offers a comparible Linux solution.

As gotomypc etc. are mainly used for remote desktop access and helpdesk support, they're irrelevant to ltsp deployments or vdi type solutions. Ltsp has worldwide adoption and usage in the spaces I mentioned, sure citrix and MS vdi / app streaming etc. are in use in big business sector. As for not being able to do that with linux, I would be surprised if it's not fairly easily doable but the market for it would be small.

> You obviously don't know what Windows XP Embedded is. It is still very
> popular in POS, Koisks, "infotainment" devices and other such things.

Fun story on xp embedded, colleague was walking down the street in vegas on his way to MS MMS conference, and one of the large bling signs on the strip had blue screened :)

And sure, embedded is huge, but classes of devices capable of running a linux kernel are growing. As mentioned in an earlier article, 50MHz arm boards the size of the old basic stamp are now in the $20 range.

Back to the primary point,

If a new plumbing layer or component thereof were to sacrifice continued linux dominance *or growth* in any of the above areas (mentioned in the original post), could it result in reduction or reversal of linux desktop adoption? Careful consideration of plumbing decisions so as not to lock out alternative approaches should be a high priority.

You appear to be arguing we don't need to care about linux participation in the areas we have been discussing? Is that your stance?