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An uphill battle for LibreOffice

By Jake Edge
May 2, 2012

LibreOffice (LO) keeps chugging along, with another bug fix release on May 2. Meanwhile, Apache OpenOffice (AOO) nears its first release and is starting to plan for what comes after AOO 3.4. But a recent blog post by developer Michael Meeks highlights a special challenge faced by LO: making a name for itself.

The OpenOffice "brand" has been a successful one. Many users have heard of it as an alternative to the proprietary office suites (notably Microsoft Office) and that is where they turn when they are looking. But, as Meeks points out, there has been no OpenOffice release in 16 months or so and the features of the suite have been essentially frozen for an additional six months. Largely because of the brand, though, "users are still downloading this increasingly old and creaky release at top speed", Meeks said.

He also put together a feature comparison that, not surprising given the source, shows LO with a substantial feature lead. One would guess that AOO partisans might find things to quibble with in that chart, but it isn't grossly inaccurate by any means. Because LO didn't suffer from some of the impediments that have stood in the way of AOO progress—Oracle's disinterest, followed by the move to Apache which necessitated a lot of changes—it has surged ahead feature-wise, and quite possibly community-wise as well.

One place it hasn't made its mark, however, is in the name recognition arena. Linux users can be forgiven for wondering what the fuss is about given that most distributions switched to LO more or less immediately after it was first released. But, as we are reminded ad nauseam by the media, Linux desktop users make up a tiny fraction of the market. For good or ill, to be a successful player in the free office suite world, Windows (and, increasingly, Mac OS X) is where the battle will be won or lost.

That's not to say that LO needs to "overtake" OpenOffice in order to be successful, but its developers and backers want to see it have a significant presence. That's perfectly understandable, but it will be something of an uphill battle now that there soon will be a viable successor for the OpenOffice brand. In fact, as Meeks notes, it's already been an uphill battle even without a viable competitor.

Brand recognition is a tricky problem to overcome. As we have seen over the years, technical merits are only a limited factor in which brands come out on top and which fall by the wayside. While LO may currently have features that AOO lacks (and vice versa, but the problem is mitigated for LO to some extent by the permissive license on AOO code) that gap may shrink over time. In a year or two, it's possible that there may be two roughly equivalent free software office suites supporting the same data formats and incorporating most of the same features.

Beyond the existing feature sets, many of the differences between LO and AOO are largely invisible to users. Most users don't choose their software based on its license—perhaps unfortunately—even if they did, it's not at all clear whether copyleft or permissive would be more attractive. The code cleanups and other streamlining that LO has done makes the code easier to work with, though that is disputed by some in the AOO camp, but that kind of work doesn't really directly show itself to users. That leaves brand identity as the main distinguishing element.

Now that the vote has passed, AOO 3.4 should be officially released any time now. In addition, AOO mentor Ross Gardler thinks the project is well on its way to graduating from the Apache Incubator to become a full-fledged Apache project. Once that initial, largely procedural hurdle has been cleared, it will be interesting to see where things go.

For one thing, regular AOO updates mean that security updates can be quickly addressed with actual binary packages, rather than by releasing patches that users are expected to build for themselves. The long-awaited code drop of IBM's Symphony fork appears to be imminent as well. That should bring a whole slew of features that will be of interest to users. While some have questioned whether AOO is really a project dominated by one large company, IBM, Gardler does not believe that is the case—which bodes well for the project as a whole.

The Symphony features, as well as the "line caps" and other drawing improvements that come with AOO 3.4, are likely to be incorporated into LO as well. The real question is how much, if any, of the improvements that LO makes can be incorporated into AOO. The Apache license will allow things to flow into LO, but even the dual-licensed (LGPL/MPL) portions of LO may not be acceptable for an Apache project. But, in terms of differentiating itself, LO would do well to come up with its own new features. One "killer feature" might well be enough to start the "brand recognition" ball rolling—adding a few more might go a long way toward erasing AOO's lead.

Beyond that, though, it would seem that LO and the Document Foundation have some work cut out for them just in terms of getting the message out about what Meeks calls "the new, exciting, much more featureful, and fun suite". His post was a clear call for LO fans to assist in the effort to raise the profile of the LO brand. That too will be interesting to watch.



to post comments

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 3, 2012 9:08 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (2 responses)

There's a key feature that makes LibreOffice more interesting to Windows users as well: better OOXML compatibility. In my experience, you have a much better chance of getting something useful if you open an Office 2010 document with LibreOffice than with OpenOffice.

Most of the time (maybe 19 out of 20 times) people fire up the office suite just to read something someone else created, and more often than not, it's in MS Office format. Sad, but true.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 3, 2012 15:41 UTC (Thu) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link] (1 responses)

From a geek perspective, the killer app for any of these office suites will be programmability.
In some future day, when I can have an Eclipse plugin that lets me use AOO to integrate word processing, spreadsheets, and relational databases with the brain-dead ease of ALT+F11 and a bit of VBA in MS Office, that will be really cool.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 3, 2012 18:22 UTC (Thu) by krakensden (guest, #72039) [Link]

*cough*. Uno! http://api.libreoffice.org/examples/examples.html

There are bindings for most popular languages. I've used it, it works. It's been around forever.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 3, 2012 14:58 UTC (Thu) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

I thought that the office suite for OS X was called "NeoOffice" and was essentially LibreOffice before LibreOffice was (in the sense of being a fork created to deal with Sun's disinterest in making a major important change; in this case, acting like a native program on OS X). I'd think that, if the LibreOffice community can convince the NeoOffice developers to collaborate, LibreOffice code could easily run the popular alternative suite on OS X, even if it is branded to refer to an intermediary. (And it probably actually would be worthwhile to have an intermediary who represents the needs of users of that platform.)

My xxxx is bigger than yours

Posted May 3, 2012 17:39 UTC (Thu) by Fats (guest, #14882) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't understand these 'my xxxx is bigger than yours' reasoning in the open source world. LO seems to have enough development support to have a bright future and together with AOO it can slowly but truly put some dent in the Microsoft Office dominated world.
I don't see how the relative market share or name recognition is important unless you want to keep on living in the past and continue the SUN/Oracle vs Novell infighting.

Disclaimer: I am libreoffice users by choice.

My xxxx is bigger than yours

Posted May 4, 2012 0:13 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I don't know what are the particular motivations of people who want better name recognition for LibreOffice, but I can think of two that involve more honorable goals than just ego stroking:

  • If LO is better than OO/AOO and people don't know about it, they have less office tool function available to them and won't be as productive.
  • If people believe OO is the best open source has to offer, and it doesn't compete against Microsoft Office as well as LO, then non-free software dominance benefits. Many people think that's a bad thing.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 4, 2012 12:36 UTC (Fri) by leonov (guest, #6295) [Link] (8 responses)

What's keeping the forks from merging?

Personalities? Licensing issues?

Wouldn't the best thing for the Free Software world would be if the OpenOffice name were combined with all the fix-ups and features from the LibreOffice project, now that the former has been released from Oracle's grasp?

Confusing potential new users of Free Software with two projects seems like a waste of a fantastic opportunity to gain 'mind share' with them -- not to mention a division of development labour on the project itself.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 4, 2012 13:37 UTC (Fri) by thumperward (guest, #34368) [Link] (7 responses)

A bit of both. From a licensing point of view, Apache requires an Individual Contributor License Agreement (ICLA) from contributors, as well as other formalities, before contributions can be accepted. This is a non-starter given that LibreOffice (and go-OO before it) were in large part a reaction to the previous requirement for copyright assignment in the old OOo. So it wouldn't be possible for the LibreOffice code to be donated en masse to Apache, at least not without getting every contributor to *again* submit to relicensing their code (TDF is tri-licensed under the MPL/GPL/MGPL, which required obtaining a relicensing statement from everyone who had contributed code to OOo which hadn't been assigned to Sun / Oracle).

Then there's the addition problem of using AOO as a "clean start" once it's released, and rebasing all of the LibreOffice code on top of an Apache-licensed core. This appears to be getting held up primarily due to Apache bureaucracy: there are various CWSes (temporary feature branches) in the old OOo source which have unclear licensing (as only released source was explicitly relicensed), and the Apache mentors have been dismissive of requests to ensure that these are covered by the license grant because the requests don't come from signed-in AOOO "Committers". [1] LibreOffice may depend on source in those CWSes and cannot distribute them under its tri-license unless they are first established to be under the Apache license.

Actually *joining* AOO as contributors is seen as dangerous for the independent future of LibreOffice / TDF (a process which took over a decade from the first call for an independent OOo foundation) as there are parties (in particular one IBM staffer) who would inevitably try to ensure that as much press as possible was given to "TDF joining Apache" and thus popular perception being that TDF's "fork" was no longer important.

Politically, the general perception appears to be that Apache is operating as a convenient foil for IBM to usurp the OpenOffice brand name and community. The vast majority of actual developers active on the main AOO list at the moment appear to be Chinese IBM staff. IBM's promised code drop of their private IAccessible2 work still hasn't materialised (see [2] for a discussion last year: IBM has promised to release this code for five years) and nor has their Symphony user interface code (also promised for "some time after the AOO release", though reading between the lines of what IBM staff has suggested for "AOO 4.0" it would seem more likely that this would occur through IBM throwing an entire release over the wall once it's done, and not in a way that makes reusing that code for LibreOffice practical). All of this is anathema to the original goal of TDF, which was a community-driven OOo not stymied by overbearing bureaucracy or held to ransom by vendors with their own interests.

[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[2] http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ms...

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 4, 2012 23:13 UTC (Fri) by jimjag (guest, #84477) [Link] (1 responses)

Thx for the FUD

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 6, 2012 0:30 UTC (Sun) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

Care to elaborate?

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 7, 2012 14:38 UTC (Mon) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

Huh. The thing about that thread that surprises me isn't the suggestion to become an AOOO contributor and help if they really care (I mean, really, what else would you expect on an open source project?).

It's the implication that the licensing issues being discussed will somehow magically be addressed when the release is cut and there's a tarball of Apache Officially Blessed Source Code. I mean, making a release includes a *VOTE* by an Apache IPMC and PMC. And holding a vote is a sure way to determine if any unauthorized relicensing of LGPL code into Apache License code by changing the license headers occurred, right?

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 8, 2012 0:05 UTC (Tue) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link] (3 responses)

You appear to misunderstand how Apache works. Let me clear up some of the confusion.

First, the Apache ICLA is not a copyright assignment like the old Sun CLA was. The "C" stands for Contributor, not Copyright, and if you read the document you see that it says nothing at all about copyright assignment:

http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt

Second, the Apache ICLA is not required in order to contribute code to an Apache project. Yes, it must be contributed under the Apache license, but there is more than one way to do this. Apache projects regularly accept patches from contributors on the mailing list or via Bugzilla, without an ICLA.

Third, the Apache OpenOffice already has active members of LibreOffice. Several have even been elected as Committers in the project. So if I or anyone else wanted to make a big deal of this, we would have done so already.

4th, only individuals can join an Apache project, not corporations or foundations. So it does not make sense to talk of LO/TDF joining Apache. But as mentioned above, there are already individuals who are happy to contribute to both projects.

5th, The recent increase in Chinese developers on the list is not from IBM, but from another company, Chinese Standard Software Corporation, in Beijing. These are the engineers from the former RedFlag/RedOffice, who have a lot of experience with this code base. So it is great to see them join.

6th, The IBM contribution of Symphony is ready to go once Apache OpenOffice 3.4 is released. We're talking a week or two at this point.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 8, 2012 1:49 UTC (Tue) by thumperward (guest, #34368) [Link] (2 responses)

> You appear to misunderstand how Apache works.

You are new to Apache yourself. I'll thank you not to patronise an audience not known for being ill-informed, especially given that contributors and mentors alike have expressed concerns[1] (or indeed resigned from the project[2]) on the grounds of your behaviour.

> First, the Apache ICLA is not a copyright assignment like the old Sun CLA was. The "C" stands for Contributor, not Copyright, and if you read the document you see that it says nothing at all about copyright assignment:

The difference is academic. In either case IBM is free to use the code in question for any purpose it wishes, proprietary or not, with very little restriction. The only way in which assignment differs to restriction-free licensing here is the entirely theoretical one where someone may be sued for distribution code one wrote onesself: at present this is irrelevant.

> Second, the Apache ICLA is not required in order to contribute code to an Apache project. Yes, it must be contributed under the Apache license, but there is more than one way to do this. Apache projects regularly accept patches from contributors on the mailing list or via Bugzilla, without an ICLA.

A red herring. The Apache mentor in the directly referenced post specifically stated that a request to ensure that a given set of CWSes would not be acted upon except in the case of charity unless it came from a signed-up member of the project.

> Third, the Apache OpenOffice already has active members of LibreOffice. Several have even been elected as Committers in the project. So if I or anyone else wanted to make a big deal of this, we would have done so already.

An overlap in the communities does not prove that the communities are in agreement. Plainly some significant contributors of LibreOffice code feel that the present situation may make it impossible to successfully rebase LibreOffice on the Oracle code dump. That others have failed to register such concerns does not mean that they do not exist.

> 4th, only individuals can join an Apache project, not corporations or foundations. So it does not make sense to talk of LO/TDF joining Apache. But as mentioned above, there are already individuals who are happy to contribute to both projects.

Nevertheless, your own reply suggests that any broad move towards such would be framed by at least some AOO "Committers" in terms of "even some TDF members have joined the Apache effort". Given the old OOo's dominance in mindshare in the wider world, this is hardly healthy.

> 5th, The recent increase in Chinese developers on the list is not from IBM, but from another company, Chinese Standard Software Corporation, in Beijing. These are the engineers from the former RedFlag/RedOffice, who have a lot of experience with this code base. So it is great to see them join.

A significant proportion of these developers identify as being part of the Lotus Symphony development team.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] If a majority of these developers are indeed from other vendors then I have not seen evidence to that effect.

> 6th, The IBM contribution of Symphony is ready to go once Apache OpenOffice 3.4 is released. We're talking a week or two at this point.

IAccessible2 has been promised for five years. Promise of code is not code, no matter what the time frame.

[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[2] http://www.taming-openoffice-org.com/newsite/?p=1473
[3] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[4] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[5] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[6] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[7] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[8] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[9] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...
[10] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-de...

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 8, 2012 2:41 UTC (Tue) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link] (1 responses)

1. Although some Apache members might dislike the fact that I don't suffer fools gladly, I don't think any of them will agree with your statements or disagree with the facts as I state them here. (And btw, I am not new to Apache. I was also a Committer back in 2000, on Apache Xalan)

2. With the CWS's, no one in the project is paid to do research or code for LibreOffice. If someone at LO wants something done, then they will need to either do it themselves or persuade someone at Apache to do it for them. And btw, insulting the Apache project at every turn is not a recommended way to persuade someone to help you. And demanding that things be done immediately is also unlikely to elicit the kind of response you wish.

In any case, we asked for a list of which CWS's LO wants. We're waiting, patiently, for a response.

3. If you check our version control logs I think find that not a single commit has been made by the Symphony team in Beijing. So your assertion that the "vast majority of actual developer[s]...appear to be Chinese IBM staff" is false. But what if it were true? Do you have a problem with Chinese engineers or something?

4. As for your statement that "I have not seen evidence to that effect" that other Chinese companies are involved, this would only be true if you have not read the list in the last week, where we had a huge set of introductions by such developers. Perhaps you missed these *43 posts*:

http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.incubator...

5. As for promises of code not being the same as code, that is undeniably true. So I assume that in a couple of weeks when the code is actually contributed, you'll be gracious and give us credit for carrying out that promise?

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 8, 2012 8:05 UTC (Tue) by thumperward (guest, #34368) [Link]

> (And btw, I am not new to Apache. I was also a Committer back in 2000, on Apache Xalan)

My apologies.

> In any case, we asked for a list of which CWS's LO wants. We're waiting, patiently, for a response.

Indeed. The response to that list, if and when it comes, will be a key moment.

> 3. If you check our version control logs I think find that not a single commit has been made by the Symphony team in Beijing. So your assertion that the "vast majority of actual developer[s]...appear to be Chinese IBM staff" is false.

We're talking about public perception of who is in charge of the project, as perceived from the mailing list (which, for Apache projects, is the canonical source for activity). A large number of IBM staff arriving after you raised a call on the list asking about contributors' experience with the codebase (the parent message to most of the previously-linked mails) certainly reinforces that perception. I'm not sure what it says if none of them have actually contributed any code to AOO.

> But what if it were true? Do you have a problem with Chinese engineers or something?

Certainly not. However, *if* it were true, then that would rather confirm that the project were being primarily driven and developed by IBM, as opposed to the community-led (vendor-sponsored, certainly, but within a broader developer ecosystem) LibreOffice.

> 4. As for your statement that "I have not seen evidence to that effect" that other Chinese companies are involved, this would only be true if you have not read the list in the last week, where we had a huge set of introductions by such developers. Perhaps you missed these *43 posts*:
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.incubator...

As a matter of fact I had. It's encouraging that there is at least one other vendor working on AOO.

> 5. As for promises of code not being the same as code, that is undeniably true. So I assume that in a couple of weeks when the code is actually contributed, you'll be gracious and give us credit for carrying out that promise?

Certainly. A release of that magnitude would be a huge boon and IBM would be rightly praised for it.

The LibreOffice killer feature is that they love their users and their users love them back

Posted May 5, 2012 22:16 UTC (Sat) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

I had to laugh at this commit: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e...

And now they have Neil Gaiman as a fan: https://twitter.com/neilhimself/status/198880813520142338

How much more promotion do you really need :)

LibreOffice people should just stop the petty bitching

Posted May 10, 2012 7:51 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]

*Our code is nicer, secure, less german, faster, has more features bla bla* yadda yadda. Big deal, AOO was in transition. So that really does not count.
And most people don't care. Their Libre* name sucks and nobody in the real world knows it or is likely to ever know it if AOO picks up speed again.
If marketing and high Google rankings would have been considered they should have called it FreeOffice. They didn't for ideological reason and now they complain. Quite annoying IMO.
Let's just release good software and let others decide what is what, OK guys? IBM will likely push AOO hard and it will get nice features before LO and then the race is really on.

(Just for the record: I donated money for TDF to get it started in Germany, but I don't have to be happy about the way they behave.)

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 10, 2012 12:50 UTC (Thu) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link] (1 responses)

The problem is that the LibreOffice page doesn't mention "OpenOffice" EVEN FUCKING ONCE, resulting in LibreOffice not even appearing in Google searches for "openoffice".

This is probably because some total idiot thinks that just mentioning a trademark is automatically trademark infringement (NEWSFLASH: no, you only infringe if you mislead the customer).

Just add "LibreOffice is an improved version of OpenOffice released by the Document Foundation, and offers many new features. You should download and use LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice." to the homepage.

Along with some more SEO, it should be possible to make the LibreOffice page the 1st or 2nd result for "openoffice", which will fix the issue.

An uphill battle for LibreOffice

Posted May 10, 2012 16:30 UTC (Thu) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]

TBH AOO is the top two Google results for "free office", and LibreOffice is #4 (at least in the results I see due to my filter bubble). And I use adblock so I've no idea what malware is pushed in the sponsored search result at the top of the page.


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