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Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

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March 28, 2012

This article was contributed by Nathan Willis

Fedora's advisory board is debating changing its long-followed tradition of selecting a code name for each new release according to a peculiar formula. Although the code names have never been an integral part of the distribution's marketing plan, the impending release of Fedora 17, with its crowd-selected moniker "Beefy Miracle", has stirred up several critics — some to take offense at the name itself, some who find it a burden to explain to outsiders, and some who simply want to do away with release code names altogether.

Fedora's release code names have a history pre-dating the project itself; the tradition started at Red Hat, which assigned a code name to each Red Hat desktop release according to a peculiar pattern wherein each pair of consecutive code names shared some relationship, but that relationship differed for every pair of releases. In those days, however, the connection between each new name and its predecessor remained a secret; the code name originated behind closed doors and when the new release landed, figuring out the link was part of the game.

That all changed when Fedora picked up the code name mantle, and instituted a public procedure for suggesting, vetting, and voting on each new release name. The project now takes suggestions on its wiki for each new development cycle, where submitters list the connection between the previous code name and their proposed follow-up. Red hat's legal department and the Fedora Advisory Board whittle down the options to a manageable number, and voting takes place on the Fedora project site.

The miraculous

Code name selection has not always been a smooth process, but no name was quite as divisive as "Beefy Miracle," which was first proposed as a code name for Fedora 16, and which lost out narrowly to the eventual winner "Verne" — despite a public marketing campaign run on the behalf of "Beefy Miracle". The name then resurfaced as a proposal for Fedora 17, and this time won the poll. Fedora 17 is slated for release on May 8.

Even during the Fedora 16 voting cycle, "Beefy Miracle" was a controversial choice, partly for its nonsensical nature, but also because its connection to the previous code name "Lovelock" stretched the rules. The official guidelines state that each pair of code names must share an "is a" relationship (e.g., Laughlin is a city in Nevada, and Lovelock is a city in Nevada). The submitted connection between "Lovelock" and "Beefy Miracle" was that both strings would eventually produce the number five when fed through an iterative formula. The code name lost out to "Verne," of course, but the submitted connection for the Fedora 17 release name was also tenuous: that both "Verne" and "Beefy Miracle" had been proposed as possible code names for Fedora 16.

In October 2011, after the voting, there were several critics. Michael Schwendt called it impossible to explain to users; Christoph Wickert said it had no connection to the actual product, and another user named Roger lamented that it did not signify anything "important." But the most extreme reaction came from Bob Jensen, who stated his desire to end the use of code names altogether.

The tedious

Jensen's 2011 call to end code names outright was terse and isolated to his sole email, but more users echoed the same sentiment as the planning cycle for Fedora 18 got underway in March. Stephen Smoogen called for an end to the naming cycle or changing to a different format in a message to the Fedora advisory-board list, saying "I am not sure what 'naming' does for us anymore. It is way too early in a release cycle to 'produce excitement'. [And if we can change out init systems, filesystem layout, we can surely examine whether naming does much or if there is something new we want to try.]"

In the resulting discussion, many of those who favor abolishing code names seemed to see no value in the actual names themselves. Seth Vidal, for example, said that selecting names consumes time and effort, but that no one remembers them. In a separate message, he said that release numbers were more useful because they enable one to quickly figure out how old a particular release is by counting backwards, which Fedora's unordered code names do not.

Fedora project leader Robyn Bergeron countered that the code names are incorporated into wallpapers, other design elements, and marketing materials, that participants in the naming process enjoy it, and further contended that release numbers are only "memorable" because people memorize how to count when they are children. Máirín Duffy (who leads the Fedora design team) said that the designers rarely find the code names inspirational, and although she was not in favor of abandoning them entirely (saying release numbers alone would be "cold"), she advocated selecting an consistent, ongoing theme like many other distributions use. "The current naming system usually results in awkward names that require lengthy explanation to those not involved."

Others pointed out additional value in having code names. Jason Brooks observed that when looking for help, code names make for more useful search terms than do numbers. Zoltan Hopper likened naming releases to naming children, and said each release is the creation of the community and thus ought to have a personality or identity.

Nevertheless, many of those who stood up for preserving release code names found room for improvement in the process itself. Clint Savage (who defended the use of code names as a part of Fedora's traditions and pointed to the value of non-artwork marketing such as "Beefy Miracle"-themed hot dog roasts), argued that the value of the code names outweighed the work involved in the process of selecting them, and that "maybe the problem is just a matter of streamlining."

Hopper, like Duffy, suggested picking a single theme. Choosing a theme wisely, such as scientists or inventors, he said, would also assist in marketing the distribution by lining up with Fedora's efforts to stay cutting-edge. Replacing the current process with a new one was also suggested by Matthias Clasen, who said "the naming thing started as a fun game, then it got 'standardized', and now it is just one more process that has stopped to be either fun or useful. [...] Time to reevaluate and come up with something fresh and fun that we can do for each release."

Selecting a code name that offends no one

A distinct (and arguably more serious) issue raised on the advisory-board list is the difficulty of choosing a code name that does not offend the beliefs or sensibilities of anyone. That tricky subject was raised first in a non-public ticket filed on the Advisory Board's issue tracker. The bug filer, Rajesh Ranjan, subsequently agreed to make the ticket's comment thread public by posting it to the advisory-board list.

The specific problem Ranjan raises is that the name "Beefy Miracle" is "is having a huge negative cultural, social, and political connotation with respect to India and several religions of India and [the] world." The cow is considered sacred in Hinduism, he said, so the term "beefy" is offensive because it refers to food made from beef, and it may be offensive to members of other religious groups as well as secular people from the Indian subcontinent. One commenter replied that as an international, non-religious and non-political project, Fedora should not seek to "appease" any specific belief systems — and that any code name chosen will inevitably offend someone.

That led others on the list to suggest picking a non-offensive code name "theme" — although upon further debate, finding a neutral theme is not so simple. Mario Juliano Grande Balletta suggested astronomy terms, but Josh Boyer pointed out that many astronomical object are named for potentially offensive things like the Roman god of war, and that any names of deities can be offensive to atheists. Duffy suggested coffee drinks, but Richard Fontana observed that some religions find caffeine offensive. Fontana also pointed out that the suggestion of famous scientists will undoubtedly skew towards men for historical reasons, while Ranjan noted that even numbers themselves can have negative cultural connotations.

Of course, picking names that have positive connotations everywhere on the globe is no simple task; consider the Mer project's debate in October 2011, which produced gems like "Meer" (which sounds diminutive in English), "MerDE" (which is unflattering in French), "Mermade" (which looks like a typo), and "Mermer" (which sounds difficult to understand on a phone). Given the impossibility of pleasing all of the people all of the time, talk turned to practical measures that the project could take to weed out offensive names during the code name selection process. Ranjan proposed asking the translation mailing list to look for offensive terms, since it encompasses a wide cultural circle. Nicu Buculei said that sounded like too much work, and user John Rose (aka inode0) speculated that it would be too hard to get volunteers to tackle the necessary code name vetting.

Practical steps

Bergeron acknowledged the importance of avoiding offensive terms, but expressed her faith in the Fedora community to catch and call attention to such offensive terms in code names and elsewhere:

I believe that 99.999% of the time, if or when an egregiously offensive *anything* comes up, people speak up. We've seen this in the past with a small handful of issues, and the community has always taken the steps to assess and sometimes correct those issues, case-by-case, through discussion and reasonable judgement.

Nevertheless, she advocated forwarding the code name suggestion list to the the translators for review, at the same time that it is sent to Red Hat's legal office for approval.

As to abandoning code names altogether, there has yet to be a real consensus on the board. Several people suggested adding an option to the Fedora 18 ballot to drop code names in future releases, while others felt that that question should be submitted to a separate vote. The window for suggesting code names for Fedora 18 is now closed, and the board has until March 30 to perform its own analysis of the suggestions. Voting will commence April 6; thus whichever route the board decides to take on the no-more-code-names question, the world will see it soon enough.

Fedora would not be the only distribution to make releases without a code name if it does choose that route; openSUSE, Slackware, and many others work without them, too. On the other hand, code names are an accepted practice — although most others do use a set theme. Debian uses Toy Story characters, Sugar uses fruit. A dimension not raised on the advisory board thread is that many projects stick to an alphabetic sequence for their code names, which makes them easier to sort into the correct order. That list includes Android's desserts, Ubuntu's adjective animals, and even Maemo's trade-winds. Plenty of other open source projects also use release names, whether they are chosen to communicate a message or are fully tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps Fedora's experience with "Beefy Miracle" will prompt a change of pace, but whichever direction the project heads from here, it will at least have made a conscious decision about what role — if any — its code names ought to play in its overall message.


(Log in to post comments)

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 4:42 UTC (Thu) by remmy (subscriber, #4400) [Link]

So... what colour is the bikeshed?

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 6:09 UTC (Thu) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link]

If it were just bikeshedding at work you'd see this for every release— but you don't. For some reason Beefy Miracle rubs people the wrong way (myself included, if I must admit— though I don't know why). That it violates any sane interpretation of the linkage rule makes it seem especially forced.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 6:54 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

> myself included, if I must admit— though I don't know why

hehe.

The only problem I see with 'Beefy Miracle' is that it's a joke that has been played out. It's cute and fun, but I guess people just feel the need to agonize over every little thing and make everything a drawn-out chore.

Almost nobody knows the code name for any Fedora release. They are boring, irrelevant, and basically useless monikers that, in addition, are instantly forgettable. You could rename a release "Fart goes Splat" and almost nobody would bat a eye. I expect that majority of Fedora users never realized that Fedora actually had code names until now.

Ubuntu does a good job because they picked a theme and stuck with it. Not to mention that the use of alphabet sorting makes it useful enough that people actually use it. Similar thing with Debian. Meanwhile people regularly refer to Debian Serge or Debian Sid all the time. So much so that it almost makes Debian's version numbering redundant.

When was the last time you saw any sort of mention of "Yeah I was using Fedora Goddard the other day..." in any sort of blog or anything anywhere?

See? It's just boring and while Goddard is a decent name, it's just flung out there like it's FCC label on the bottom of your laptop or something. It's uninspired and could be used in a much better way. Utter fail. Fedora could of taken it and ran with it, but they didn't.

Apple is another example of somebody that pulls it off very well. They have their themes with cat names. It's kinda cool and it provides all sorts of useful and interesting imagery for their marketing efforts. Angry looking snow leopards are cool looking.

Fundamentally a name that people have a negative emotional reaction to is far superior, marketing wise, then one that people have no reaction to. But anyways Beefy Miracle is neat because the super hero hotdog logos and wallpapers floating around are funny and cute. Now even having to explain this ruins pretty much all the fun, but it needed to be done.

Fedora is a irreverent operating system. People can take it and run with it. It is not afraid to embrace new technologies and make changes. It takes open source seriously and has adopted and refined technologies that other distributions were slow in up taking. This attitude should be reflected in the name. It's something that should be capitalized on if you want to promote it properly.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 8:24 UTC (Thu) by Felix.Braun (guest, #3032) [Link]

Violating "sane" interpretation of rules while still following them on a different level is the root of all art :-)

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:53 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

That's why hacking (properly done) is considered an art.

Porky miracle

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:05 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

For some reason Beefy Miracle rubs people the wrong way (myself included, if I must admit— though I don't know why).
Because of the cognitive disonance? Hot dogs are made of pork.

And, it is a stupid name.

Porky miracle

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:34 UTC (Fri) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link]

Indeed, it's a stupid name— but they're almost all stupid. Zod? Moonshine? Werewolf? Sulphur? But all code names are. Leopard? Lion? ... I think the complaints are mostly that its more stupid than typical, not that its stupid.

I think it loses points beyond the average for being adjective-noun and for referencing food, or at least I think the ubuntu names which also have the adjective-noun form are more stupid than typical Fedora names "Pretentious Porcupine" or whatever (though less bad than Beefy Miracle) where I've never thought the Apple animal-enabled codenames to be unusually stupid. (Also, I suppose for being gratuitously skeevy for the vegetarians and Hindus) But I admit I'm totally waving my hands here and trying to rationalize what really is just a gut impression.

…it probably didn't help that I've seen the old beefy miracle fudcon photographs (mostly drunk looking people hanging on a person in a hotdog suit), along with the silly artwork, and gibbering foolishness about "His Meatiness's scriptures", all embarrassing on their own— at least if used as anything to represent Fedora— independent of the name.

Porky miracle

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:42 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Yeah, it's all embarrassing and the jokes in the announcement are not helping either. But this is offensive at a lower level which borders the subconscious -- I don't know for others, but for me it is really the cognitive dissonance that makes it.

Imagine a peanut butter sandwich and someone speaking about "Cheesy Miracle". Or a piece of corn bread and "Wheaty Miracle". Argh! My inner ears hurt just imagining it.

Now excuse me, I am going back to dress as a turkey to promote KFC.

Porky miracle

Posted Mar 31, 2012 6:36 UTC (Sat) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

Hot dogs are made of pork.

Not all of them. There are kosher all beef hot dogs, which many people prefer to the pork ones.

Porky miracle

Posted Mar 31, 2012 9:04 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Ugh. Thanks, but that bit of info somehow makes it even worse. If only for the environment.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 8:25 UTC (Thu) by elama (guest, #262) [Link]

50% grey, everything else could offend anyone.

Maybe they should use names like "no name", "it", "John Doe", "Anonymous" - ups.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:57 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

"No name" has negative connotations (cheap knock-off product from a third world country with questionable quality and blatant disregard to copyrights). "it" reminds me some scary horror movie. "John Doe" is obviously sexist. 50% grey should be 50% gray anyway, so that's offending too.

:-)

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 2, 2012 20:06 UTC (Mon) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]

Oooh.The next name must be Chartreuse Bikeshed.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:48 UTC (Thu) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

Much better to have Mark Shuttleworth just pick the name and that's it.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:33 UTC (Thu) by ESRI (guest, #52806) [Link]

Agreed. Accept community input, but then someone just needs to make a decision and move on to things that are actually important.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:53 UTC (Thu) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

It may not be an important decision in itself, but it is important that it's made in the right way. The naming process is a nice little microcosm of how Fedora works - stuff comes from the community, gets voted on my the community, and Red Hat Legal have a veto on the side. That's the Fedora way.

The Ubuntu naming process where an idiosyncratic decision is handed down ex cathedra is also reflective of how that distribution makes decisions, including the important ones.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 18:28 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

Just give naming power to the Fedora project leader. If you don't like his choices, vote him out next time. If you have a suggestion you have his email address. It's sufficiently democratic and avoids all of the overhead.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 18:49 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

I don't think being "sufficiently democratic" is the only goal here. It involves a direct opportunity to suggest names and more importantly, a bit of goofy fun as well although the only reason Beefy Miracle won is because of a gaming of the process. As a side note, you assume the leader is a he while currently it is a she. You might want to avoid assuming gender in the future.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 22:33 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> As a side note, you assume the leader is a he while currently it is a she. You might want to avoid assuming gender in the future.

I didn't read it as sorpigal[1] not acknowledging that the FPL could be female. English's lack of a gender-neutral set of more-than-things pronouns ("it" seems…/too/ impersonal and carries a lot of bad connotations when referring to people; singular "they" doesn't seem a half-bad solution, but I'm sure it gives many grammar sticklers a fit). The "s/he", "his or her", and "he or she" constructions tend to be cumbersome to deal with *everywhere* gender isn't known (I think I tend to use singular "they" when speaking, and lapse into forms of "he" in writing).

A good read where the axis of pronouns is changed from gender to race by Hofstadter is here[2]. There's another chapter[3] from "Metamagical Themas" which discusses the topic itself, but I can't find the actual content online.

[1]Was going to put "him", but I don't actually know.
[2]http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
[3]Titled "Changes in Default Words and Images, Engendered by Rising Consciousness"

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 29, 2012 23:37 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Using 'his or her' is awkward indeed but 'they' can be used here easily and and we ought to take care extra care to use gender neutral terms in our communication as much as possible. It really does make a difference even if it is subtle.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 10:41 UTC (Fri) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

Grandparent's analysis is correct. I gave up on trying to keep my language gender neutral because it's excessively difficult in English for gains that are unimportant to me in non-formal writing. I used to alternate arbitrarily between "he" and "she" where ambiguity existed but lately I just treat "he" as neutral. Until someone invents a singular for this there isn't a better way.

"They" is just wrong; we don't need another "you" in this language.. Being absolutely wrong using "they" as singular is not better than being sometimes wrong about the possible gender of the referent.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 12:39 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

'They' is not wrong since I didn't suggest using it as singular. The problem with gender specific language is that it often if not entirely excludes females and that is a problem especially in open source.

Dictator needed

Posted Apr 4, 2012 14:08 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

You might presume that when someone says "he" he means "he or she" and when someone says "him" he means "him or her" unless context clearly indicates otherwise. If you do this women are no longer excluded.

This interpretation of the meaning of these words is certainly my intent when using them, and I think it should be the interpretation in general use. This is a far less invasive means of obtaining written gender equality than the acrobatics necessary for gender-neutral language. It could be argued that by doing this and thus not having a word for "specifically male" we are marginalizing men, but I don't think there will be serious objections to this.

Dictator needed

Posted Apr 5, 2012 13:08 UTC (Thu) by jwakely (guest, #60262) [Link]

> You might presume that when someone says "he" he means "he or she" and when someone says "him" he means "him or her" unless context clearly indicates otherwise. If you do this women are no longer excluded.

So you didn't read Hofstadter's "People Paper on Purity in Language" then? :)

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 12:42 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

"They" is just wrong; we don't need another "you" in this language.. Being absolutely wrong using "they" as singular is not better than being sometimes wrong about the possible gender of the referent.
Sigh, not this again.

MWDEU is scathing:

1. Common-gender pronoun. [...] the plural pronouns have been pressed into use to supply the missing form since Middle English [quote from Chaucer elided]...

A second kind of reference connects they, their, them to singular nouns that can apply to both sexes. Again, we can see that the practice has a long history: [quotes from Swift, Goldsmith, Thackeray, Spencer, Orwell and Burchfield elided].

As most commentators note, the traditional pronoun for each of these cases is the masculine third person singular, he, his, him. This tradition goes back to the 18th-century grammarians, who boxed themselves into the poisition by first deciding that the indefinite pronouns must always be singular. They then had to decide between the masculine and feminine singular pronouns for use in reference to the indefinites, and they chose the masculine (they were, of course, all men).

MWDEU also provides a wonderful example of a place where the use of anything but singular/indefinite they (or, I suppose, feminine singular) goes terribly wrong:
... everyone will be able to decide for himself whether or not to have an abortion -- Albert Blumenthal, NY State Assembly (cited in Longman 1984).
As for 'he or she', MWDEU has this to say (in addition to a whole entry on the subject, analyzing it in some depth):
Some commentators recommend he or she, his or herhim or her to avoid the sex bias of the masculine and the presumed solecism of the plural. Bollinger 1980 points out that this solution, too, is old, going back to the 18th century, but that many commentators are also hostile to the forms as unwieldy... Even the he or she formula can lead the unwary into trouble, as in this instance where it is used to refer to a plural pronoun:

Those who have been paid for the oil on his or her property -- Lucia Mouat, Christian Science Monitor, 4 Aug. 1983 (cited by Allan Metcalf, American Speech, Fall 1984).
So, yes, 'they' is just wrong, as long as you consider Chaucer, Swift, Thackeray, Orwell, and, hell, pretty much every other English speaker of the last thousand years whose words have been recorded to be wrong. (It is notable how many treatises decrying singular/indefinite they then proceed to accidentally use it within the next chapter. It is part of English. Live with it.)

singular they

Posted Mar 31, 2012 17:33 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

So, yes, 'they' is just wrong, as long as you consider Chaucer, Swift, Thackeray, Orwell, and, hell, pretty much every other English speaker of the last thousand years whose words have been recorded to be wrong.

You haven't even come close to showing that pretty much every English speaker of the last thousand years whose words have been recorded used singular they.

Also, speakers from hundreds of years ago are not very relevant to what should be considered correct today. People who care about grammar reject much of the grammar of Chaucer and Shakespeare for current use.

English grammar rules tend to be arbitrary, so it doesn't matter much if one was established recently, in defiance of previous usage. For whatever reason a person seeks to follow rules of grammar, a rule such as "'they' is plural" that has been in place since it was manufactured by 17th century grammarians counts. (Of course, so do others that might conflict with that one).

singular they

Posted Mar 31, 2012 17:57 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

For whatever reason a person seeks to follow rules of grammar, a rule such as "'they' is plural" that has been in place since it was manufactured by 17th century grammarians counts.

The problem with that »rule« is that it is largely based on wishful thinking on the part of grammar prescriptivists, 17th century or otherwise.

If you disagree, check out Language Log, where some of the most important real-life, 21st century, English grammarians hang out. If Geoffrey K. Pullum, who is a linguistics professor at the University of Edinburgh and a co-author of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language – widely considered definitive – says that singular »they« is OK, I tend to take his word over that of mere amateurs in the comment sections of Linux web sites.

singular they

Posted Apr 1, 2012 5:19 UTC (Sun) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

there is no single right answer to this question any more than there is a right answer to top-posting vs bottom-posting in e-mail

the 'right' answer depends on your audience. It doesn't matter what the 'official' answer is if the people that you are talking with disagree.

singular they

Posted Apr 1, 2012 5:20 UTC (Sun) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

To clarify, the point of writing and talking is to communicate, If the form of your message gets in the way, you are wrong, now matter what the official position on what you did is.

singular they

Posted Apr 1, 2012 11:59 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

The problem at hand isn't so much that some people misunderstand singular »they« (which would indeed be a communication problem).

It is rather that some people erroneously believe English grammar has a »rule« that says »they« must always be plural – a rule which leading experts on the subject agree does not exist, and which has never really existed in actual practice, as demonstrated by several centuries' worth of writings from many authors including ones like Shakespeare or Austen who are otherwise considered among the greatest in the history of English-language literature –, and that they try to force this »rule« onto other people because the use of singular »they« offends their sense of aesthetics (which is an arrogance problem).

singular they

Posted Apr 1, 2012 17:41 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

some people erroneously believe English grammar has a »rule« that says »they« must always be plural

It isn't erroneous. There is no RFC for English grammar, so you can't say so definitively whether any rule exists or does not exist. Rules of English grammar exist vaguely in the collective minds of English speakers/listeners. There is quite clearly a rule that "they" is plural, just as there is one that it is singular.

The Pullum article you cite doesn't use the word "rule." It says singular they is "grammatical." Let's not assume we know exactly what he means by that. There are at least two very different kinds of grammar, prescriptive and descriptive, and it isn't even controversial that singular they conforms to descriptive grammar of English. I.e. people say it. Pullum notes that Strunk and White, a prescriptive grammar which is about the closest we can come to an RFC, incontrovertibly pronounces "they" plural.

The Pullum article also does not directly address "they" with a definite singular antecedent ("the user turned off their computer") (in fact it explicitly disclaimed that), commenting on the indefinite case ("everyone turned off their computers"), which is rather different because an indefinite pronoun can more easily be associated in the mind with multiple people.

As for whether a plural "they" prescription exists, I'm influenced heavily by the fact that I've been studying English grammar in earnest for about 40 years and until 2 years ago had never heard anyone claim that singular they is grammatical. Until then, lots of people argued for plural they, but it was always with, "we have to change the grammar because the existing one holds women back and/or disrespects them." And of course, lots of people have used it throughout history, but the same is true of plenty of things widely accepted as errors, so that doesn't influence me much.

singular they

Posted Apr 1, 2012 22:46 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

Pullum notes that Strunk and White, a prescriptive grammar which is about the closest we can come to an RFC, incontrovertibly pronounces "they" plural.

Strunk and White try to be prescriptivist, but they prescribe lots of things that – irrespective of the actual merit of the stuff they prescribe – they then don't actually adhere to themselves, in the selfsame book. This makes one wonder exactly how far prescriptivist grammar gets one. They should at the very least eat their own dog food.

If the actual RFCs were anything like Strunk and White we would still communicate by semaphore flag. The best one can do with a copy of Strunk and White is burn it for heat in winter.

singular they

Posted Apr 4, 2012 13:54 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

The wonderful and horrible thing about English is that there isn't any real authority on the subject except for general use and consensus. If you like you can think of my insistence on treating 'they' as plural as a campaign to direct that general consensus towards a use that I prefer.

singular they

Posted Apr 5, 2012 9:10 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Quite. I could have quoted CGEL but I thought that that would be too much like using a thermonuclear weapon to swat flies.

Dictator needed

Posted Apr 4, 2012 14:11 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> So, yes, 'they' is just wrong, as long as you consider Chaucer, Swift, Thackeray, Orwell, and, hell, pretty much every other English speaker of the last thousand years whose words have been recorded to be wrong.
You nailed it. The nice thing about English is that every speaker is an authorized reformer equal to all others. I take it you don't want to join my campaign for the abolition of the use of 'they' as a singular. Would you care, instead, to join me in condemning the practice of writing the currency sign as a prefix to a number? It reads better to say e.e. 100$ than $100, so it should be switched (and $100 is absolutely wrong!).

Dictator needed

Posted Apr 5, 2012 9:42 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Would you care, instead, to join me in condemning the practice of writing the currency sign as a prefix to a number? It reads better to say e.e. 100$ than $100, so it should be switched (and $100 is absolutely wrong!).
The problem there is that prefixed currency symbols are not just almost universally preferred, but even when using the ISO currency codes one normally prefixes them (e.g. GBP 100, not 100 GBP).

Dictator needed

Posted Apr 5, 2012 9:24 UTC (Thu) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

Even if there were some rule about "they" being plural-only (that seems to have been discussed well already), consider that what you're saying is: you are more worried about following some arbitrary rules to show off how well educated you are, than you are about how this frustrates and excludes actual real people who already have to deal with way too much of this BS.

And no, saying "well they should just decide that it doesn't exclude them" doesn't actually help. It's not their job to compensate for your thoughtlessness just so you can win some imaginary argument with the English language.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 5:38 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Use 'they/them' for gender-neutral pronouns. Works just fine.

PS: most of languages with grammatical genders don't have this problem. Let's all switch to Russian!

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:18 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

You mean languages with a gender-neutral pronoun? In Spanish (with genders) the problem exists, even though the male pronoun is the weak (or markless) form and therefore should be used as neutral (if we used logic and not cultural bias to decide these things). For example, mixed plural in Spanish is always plural male: if there is a group of female doctors, it is "doctoras"; if there is just one male, then it is "doctores". Lately some people have been using a cute "doctor@s" which is abhorrent to most others.

I believe the same happens in French, Italian and Portuguese. English is odd because it has gender-neutral pronouns for everything, gender is very rare, but both "he" and "she" are marked, and the singular form "it" is reserved for non-people.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:35 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

In gendered languages the grammatical gender of sentence's object usually coordinates the gender of personal pronouns. So there's no problem with sentences like:

"When a user clicks on the link, _he_ should see a new webpage displayed in a new tab"

In Russian that's OK, since 'user' is masculine so it automatically coordinates the gender of the personal pronoun.

Dictator needed

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:41 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

OK, we only have the cultural issues, not the grammatical problem. In English they have both, intermixing in odd ways that result in the "hir" abomination.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 14:15 UTC (Thu) by dac (guest, #9260) [Link]

Is it April 1 already?

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 18:15 UTC (Thu) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link]

> but Josh Boyer pointed out that many astronomical object are named for
> potentially offensive things like the Roman god of war, and that any names
> of deities can be offensive to atheists.

As an atheist, I must say I've never been offended by celestial objects (or anything else) being named after supposed deities... Nor do I know anyone else who has... Just because we don't believe in them doesn't mean they don't make for good names! I, for one, would love to see a distro adopt this as a naming scheme: Greek, Roman, and Norse (and maybe others) gods... Who wouldn't love running a distro named Thor or Zeus or Bacchus??

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 19:02 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 19:43 UTC (Thu) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link]

Which is the perfect name for a makefile generator!

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 20:34 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Quite. Anyone offended by the names of celestial objects would be too busy being offended by the days of the week in a whole lot of languages. It is safe to say that no such human beings exist.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:10 UTC (Thu) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

Who wouldn't love running a distro named Thor or Zeus or Bacchus??
Just so long as we can name one "Flying Spaghetti Monster", I'm in.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:46 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

"Flying Spaghetti Monster" is-a mythical edible creature, as is Beefy Miracle.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 22:45 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

...and you're not afraid of offending the gluten intolerant...?

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 0:28 UTC (Fri) by kevinlyles (subscriber, #77866) [Link]

Perhaps FSM's noodly appendages are made of rice pasta?

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 0:54 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

Taking a bit of a philosophical twist....

I could never understand why people get offended by anything. I mean - why bother?

If someone says something (or doesn't) it either makes you feel bad or not.

If not - fine: be happy.
If it does, then this is either because there is badness in you or in them (or most likely in both, but that generalisation doesn't affect the following logic).
If the badness is in you, then be thankful for them helping you see it, and work to fix it.
If the badness is in them, then add them (on that topic) to your mental kill file and get on with your life.

Being offended, like nursing a grudge, simply is not worth it.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 6:34 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Tsk tsk, you philosophers. What you describe is an exact science.

It is known as the First Law Of Weakness: all particles in a system interact through meaningless messages. There's nothing you can do about it. Because of the Principle Of Conservation of Conversation, this exchange of messages wears these particles down, until -- and this is the Second Law -- they are simply too weak to keep it up. To observers in different reference frames this will look like a total, sudden collapse of the system, but to other observers some of the messages will in fact appear to have a charge, and they will -- Third Law -- become attracted to the system, and start to reciprocate.

This is a depressing state of affairs, not in the least because it has been shown that a system like this can't be halted.

(Some researchers, in a feeble attempt to save this model of our world, have proposed that if you look at the messages close enough, you may detect some meaning in them. But other researchers were quick to prove that at those scales there is an inherent uncertainty in the interpretation of any such message, rendering the whole system unstable. New developments however show that there may be a mechanism that allows any message to acquire meaning, which is obviously incredibly exciting news.)

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 10:30 UTC (Fri) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link]

How on Earth did you reincarnate Douglas Adams and get him to write that for you?!

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 11:21 UTC (Fri) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

[the] exchange of messages wears these particles down, until they are simply too weak to keep it up. [...] to other observers some of the messages will in fact appear to have a charge, and they will become attracted to the system and reciprocate

I have the solution!1 The naming process should produce always-offending names, just so that it offends the most people possible, which should lead to an eventual cold/hot death of discussions.
To that end, tyrans and dictators, mostly of the 20th century, provide for a sized starting selection. :-p

Godwin's law

Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:23 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

I propose Godwin as a release name that:
  • includes a "God" in its name,
  • precludes invocation of Hitler to end the naming thread,
  • and secludes participants from non-nerd contexts.
Everyone loses!

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 31, 2012 6:33 UTC (Sat) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

If the badness is in them, then add them (on that topic) to your mental kill file and get on with your life.

That's a strategy that only works when the offense is basically minor, when you're in a position of power that lets you brush off other people's hostility toward you. When offensive language is often used by people who engage in discrimination or violence, it's a lot harder to ignore. If it's used in ignorance, it's a sign that the person using it needs to be educated. If offensive language is used deliberately, it's a sign that the person using it bears us (or whomever they're targeting) ill will. When we let people get away with being offensive, it legitimizes the more dangerous behavior that the offensive language is associated with. I'm not suggesting that we need to make offensive speech illegal, but I do think it needs to be considered socially unacceptable along with the views it supports.

As an example in the Free Software world, this is why the Ada Initiative is pushing for a code of conduct that includes preventing sexist speeches and presentations. You can't draw a neat line between allowing sexist speech and creating an environment that's hostile to women, or between creating an environment that's hostile toward women and one that's actually dangerous. The only thing to do is to make it clear that even offensive behavior is unacceptable, much less anything stronger.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 1, 2012 22:59 UTC (Sun) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

Your point is well made. Attempting to heal the badness in the other person can be an alternative to ignoring it - sometimes a preferred alternative. I guess I am guilty of over-generalising.

I think the present issue of Fedora naming is "basically minor" - there is no evidence of deliberate offense, at most there is carelessness. Feeling offended by that - especially when there was a community voting process to choose the name - seems miss-placed.

Caring enough to feel offended, but not caring enough to contribute seems like the entitlement culture that Jake was writing about recently[1]

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/481901/

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 5, 2012 9:41 UTC (Thu) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

It's not so much that "attempting to heal the badness [is] an alternative to ignoring it", it's that ignoring it may not be an option. Seriously it's pretty obvious that "Beefy Miracle" is not going to play well in India, and obviously Fedora didn't care enough about those people's reactions to take them into account. It's not magic arbitrary combinations of syllables that makes people angry, it's being brushed off, told they don't matter, etc.

And the "deliberateness" of an offense is pretty irrelevant for other kinds of injuries ("hey I didn't mean to hit you with my car so we're good right?"), so why should it matter when the offense takes the form of language?

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 6, 2012 20:41 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

It's not so much that "attempting to heal the badness [is] an alternative to ignoring it", it's that ignoring it may not be an option

And the boundary is when the badness is directed outward and can hurt other people. It's a lot harder to ignore offensive speech when it has been followed up by harmful actions. Maybe Indians would be more inclined to laugh off religious slights if India hadn't been taken over by colonialists with different religious beliefs who treated them as second class citizens in their own country.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 29, 2012 20:17 UTC (Thu) by utoddl (subscriber, #1232) [Link]

I swear I read "a public procedure for suggesting, vetting, and voting on each new release name" as "a public procedure for suggesting, vetting, and vomiting on each new release name" at first.

I've found when working with kids that finding the right balance between wide open anything goes freedom and strictly proscribing boundaries makes a huge difference when asking them to be creative. The old "must be related to the prior code name" guideline has probably run its course; time to move on.

Now that Fedora release numbers are high enough, I'd suggest (for then next few release anyway, until it's not fun any more) that the new code names be all letters and spaces, and the number of letters should be the same as the release number. That's it. Go find interesting names of 19 letters. If it works, great; otherwise, let's pick a different scheme.

If only lousy names come out of it, I'm sure the public procedure for vomiting on the bad ones will lead to a better scheme for picking code names soon enough. :)

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 30, 2012 10:47 UTC (Fri) by jwakely (guest, #60262) [Link]

> Mario Juliano Grande Balletta suggested astronomy terms, but Josh Boyer pointed out that many astronomical object are named for potentially offensive things like the Roman god of war, and that any names of deities can be offensive to atheists.

I assumed Josh was pointing out the impossibility of trying to offend noone, rather than intentionally torpedoing the suggestion of astronomical objects. I'm sure there are lots of atheist astronomers who don't turn incandescent with rage whenever someone mentions Mars and Pluto.

I get offended by thin-skinned people who are over-sensitive about things which aren't derogatory or hateful.

openSUSE does have a codename

Posted Mar 30, 2012 18:04 UTC (Fri) by benoit_monin (subscriber, #61854) [Link]

The naming scheme is based on shades of green and was introduced in 11.2 (emerald) and current version 12.1 is asparagus.

It's used in the artwork, for example as the base color of the boot splash and desktop background. The codename can also be found in /etc/issue.

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Mar 31, 2012 6:45 UTC (Sat) by nijhof (subscriber, #4034) [Link]

For an 'is a' relation, maybe they should call the next release "Pink Slime"...

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 4, 2012 23:55 UTC (Wed) by meyert (subscriber, #32097) [Link]

Next time they better ask the neutral president from the neutral planet for a name!

Fedora release naming "is a" bit contentious

Posted Apr 5, 2012 8:33 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]

Fedora is _always_ so utterly buggy.
Now I know why.

Fedora buggy?

Posted Apr 8, 2012 16:07 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (guest, #4458) [Link]

Seems you are running some other Fedora than the one I find very reliable. Go figure...


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