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Fedora rejects Journal-only logging, ponders ARM

From:  Jon Ciesla <limburgher-AT-gmail.com>
To:  Development discussions related to Fedora <devel-AT-lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject:  Summary & minutes for today's FESCo meeting (2012-03-19)
Date:  Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:46:38 -0500
Message-ID:  <CAE4D3A6fv-K0_4yGf0Bt5EufTO0ngq7Ywu9m2BW3wbjrCAsTwA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc:  meetingminutes-AT-lists.fedoraproject.org
Archive-link:  Article

===================================
#fedora-meeting: FESCO (2012-03-19)
===================================


Meeting started by limburgher at 18:00:23 UTC. The full logs are
available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-03-1...
.



Meeting summary
---------------
* init process  (limburgher, 18:00:24)

* #821 F18 Feature: PCRE 8.30 --
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/pcre8.30  (limburgher,
  18:04:35)
  * AGREED: F18 PCRE 8.30 is passed  (+:8,-:0,0:0)  (limburgher,
    18:05:47)

* #822 F18 Feature: AE1000 USB wifi driver -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AE1000usb  (limburgher,
  18:05:57)
  * AGREED: F18 AE1000 USB wifi driver is rejected  (+:0,-:8,0:0)
    (limburgher, 18:07:47)

* #823 F18 Feature: Network Manager hotspots -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RealHotspot  (limburgher,
  18:08:10)
  * AGREED: F18 Network Manager hotspots is passed  (+8,-:0,0:0)
    (limburgher, 18:10:51)

* #824 F18 Feature: Rework Package Groups --
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ReworkPackageGroups
  (limburgher, 18:10:57)
  * AGREED: F18 Rework Package Groups is passed  (+6,-:0,0:2)
    (limburgher, 18:12:42)

* #826 F18 Feature: KRB5 Credential Cache Move -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KRB5CacheMove  (limburgher,
  18:12:48)
  * AGREED: F18 KRB5 Credential Cache Move is passed  (+7,-:0,0:1)
    (limburgher, 18:14:22)

* #827 F18 Feature: RPM 4.10 -
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RPM4.10  (limburgher,
  18:14:41)
  * AGREED: F18 RPM 4.10 is passed  (+8,-:0,0:0)  (limburgher, 18:15:37)

* #828 F18 Feature: systemd-journal --
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal  (limburgher,
  18:15:45)
  * AGREED: F18 systemd-journal is rejected  (+0,-:8,0:0)  (limburgher,
    18:19:15)

* firewalld  (limburgher, 18:19:36)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-03-19_firewalld
    (twoerner, 18:21:01)
  * AGREED: Proposal to have FESCO test firewalld and vote in ticket is
    passed  (+7,-:0,0:0)  (limburgher, 18:28:31)
  * AGREED: Add firewalld to comps now passed  (+5,-:2,0:0)
    (limburgher, 18:43:40)

* #830 F18 Feature: ARM as Primary Arch --
  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraARM  (limburgher,
  18:44:13)
  * LINK:
    http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_...
    (nirik, 18:45:42)
  * AGREED: ask qa, rel-eng, kernel and infra teams to provide feedback
    on the proposal. Ask fesco members to come up with critera that they
    would want to add and revisit next week.  (+8,-:0,0:0)  (limburgher,
    19:09:50)

* Next week's chair  (limburgher, 19:10:17)
  * ACTION: mmaslano to chair next week.  (limburgher, 19:10:40)

* Open Floor  (limburgher, 19:10:50)

Meeting ended at 19:42:46 UTC.




Action Items
------------
* mmaslano to chair next week.




Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* mmaslano
  * mmaslano to chair next week.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* limburgher (137)
* pjones (56)
* sgallagh (52)
* jonmasters (51)
* mitr (50)
* nirik (48)
* mjg59 (41)
* bconoboy (33)
* mmaslano (32)
* notting (30)
* t8m (28)
* zodbot (18)
* Viking-Ice (17)
* adamw (12)
* twoerner (12)
* abadger1999 (2)
* rbergeron (2)
* davej (1)




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.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot


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(Log in to post comments)

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 14:30 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

This wasn't a proposal on whether to accept the Journal; this was a proposal on whether to try turning *off* rsyslog in favor of the Journal to shake out any deficiencies in the Journal, and Fedora rejected that plan in favor of continuing to run the two in parallel for now.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 18:54 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

It seems the habit of Fedora nowadays to put new technologies in parallel-ish (as appropriate) for a couple releases before making the decision to switch over. A example of this would be systemd were they introduced it, but kept using it as if it's a sysv-style init system for a few releases. Hopefully they continue this trend with things like btrfs.

Seems like a intelligent approach. If the software can't be a passable replacement for it's predecessor it's probably not worthy of being a replacement. And the only way to know this in a effective manner is to have people us it. In order for people to use it it has to be accessible.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 14:43 UTC (Tue) by mezcalero (subscriber, #45103) [Link]

LWN, you can do better. This kind of coverage is grossly misleading and humm, not really up to your standards is it?

The journal is not rejected. It's on by default already in F17, and "systemctl status" uses it, and everything, there's nothing to reject here. What has been rejected is to turn off rsyslog by default for F18. And it might actually be worth mentioning that not even we upstream vocally argued for turning off rsyslog just yet.

Sometimes it might be a good idea to check what actually is going on before blindly reporting things with the catchiest and most misleading headline you can find.

Please correct this headline, will you?

A disappointed Lennart

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:13 UTC (Tue) by SEJeff (subscriber, #51588) [Link]

Can no one read the title of "Fedora rejects Journal-only logging, ponders ARM" or was the article title retroactively changed? Otherwise, it seems none of the current commenters can read.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:15 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I'm not hugely pleased with how the commenters have reacted to the article, but they didn't make up the title that appears on their comments. I did go back and change it after it became clear that I had misunderstood the decision somewhat.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 19:07 UTC (Tue) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Actually, the title is still misleading, since it gives the impression that it has been permanently rejected, while Fedora merely decided to not have Journal-only logging in F18, with no decision for the future.

Also, it's not whether to support ARM that is in question, but whether to support it as a primary or secondary platform.

"Fedora 18 won't have Journal-only logging, no decision on ARM architecture priority" would be a better title.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 21:53 UTC (Tue) by Tobu (subscriber, #24111) [Link]

And if the news had to fit inside the title, your complaint would be better received. As it is, I know what the news is about, I have a nice summary, Fedora's announcement in their own words, and I even have links to mailing list threads, IRC minutes, and a background article should I wish to learn more.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 21, 2012 6:32 UTC (Wed) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

I like how out of all the LWN jabs people make on the forum here and elsewhere, the one thing I see you get riled up over is being compared to Phoronix. :)

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:16 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

Look at the subject line that was automatically filled in for comments on this page. The article title has been changed.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:18 UTC (Tue) by SEJeff (subscriber, #51588) [Link]

Ah well then I rescind anything previously said however do not think it is fair to remotely compare lwn vs phoronix. It is like comparing the bbc vs drudge report.

Let's not overreact!

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:36 UTC (Tue) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link]

Yes, an e-mail to lwn@lwn.net would have been nicer, especially as Jon and Jake never try to hide their rare mistakes below the carpet.

If we don't want LWN to look like Phoronix or /., let's show this with the quality of our comments.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 14:47 UTC (Tue) by vrfy (subscriber, #13362) [Link]

Jon, are you trying to do Phoronix-style articles now?

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 18:38 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link]

> Jon, are you trying to do Phoronix-style articles now?

No, but apparently the commentators are.

Fedora rejects the Journal, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 19:28 UTC (Tue) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]

Calm down. A mistake has been made and corrected once noticed.

Move on ...

Fedora rejects Journal-only logging, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:23 UTC (Tue) by nirik (guest, #71) [Link]

Sorry for anyone who felt leftout or surprised by the arm discussion. The item was added late to the agenda and (IMHO) was just a "Sounding out" or "Lets get the ball rolling" type discussion.

I'm sure there will be much more arm discussion with feedback from many parts of Fedora before any decision is made. FESCo specifically asked for Feedback next week from some teams and there's a discussion on the arm and fedora devel lists as well.

Fedora rejects Journal-only logging, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 21, 2012 6:04 UTC (Wed) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]

Indeed. Thanks for saying that. For some reason, your reply either didn't show up just now or I missed it, but I wouldn't have bothered to repeat this had I noticed you had already said it :)

I think ARM is the way of the future for many consumers, and future developers. At an order-of-magnitude or more cheaper than many x86 boxes for e.g. a Raspberry Pi, future developers will be playing with these quite readily. Tomorrow's Linux engineers are today's high school and college students who might own Macs and iPads but still need a real Linux for their ARM boards :) In all seriousness though, the future is going to be very different and if we don't move toward embracing alternatives we're going to become increasingly marginalized.

There will be an AArch64 (ARMv8) version of Fedora in the future. That will let ARM compete with x86 for performance (though that's not the primary focus), but in the interim it's an incredibly cheap and versatile way to understand how computers really work - it's very low risk to hack and break a $25 widget compared with a $1K+ Macbook Air or whatever the cool kids are using now.

Jon.

Fedora rejects Journal-only logging, ponders ARM

Posted Mar 21, 2012 5:54 UTC (Wed) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]

Jon, everyone, for context the ARM discussion was supposed to be a request for early feedback on a proposal-in-progress. We would like to formally propose Primary Arch status for F18 soon, but we were not quite making that final, official request at the time. We're going to take the comments we received and come back with more iterations on it in the coming weeks. Whether we're PA in F18, 19, or 20, and whatever we need to do, we're going to get there in the end.


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