Wayland - Beyond X (The H) [LWN.net]

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 14:52 UTC (Thu) by tstover (guest, #56283)
In reply to: Wayland - Beyond X (The H) by khim
Parent article: Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

-Anyone developing on a laptop full time is due for some serious hand, neck, and back injuries. (this is not flame bate, but a very serious warning from experience of many)

-Android != Linux

-knowing a bunch a people who work at google that use mac laptops + using one yourself != no one uses X11 linux computers

-developing "for linux" on mac, either means one is running linux in a vm, remoted into linux, or is doing cross platform development. For instance I do cross platform development for *nix, windows, and yes osx. I still hate osx, and only put up with on the last stages of compiling and testing. I also hate windows, which is why I, like zillions of others use, - wait for it - linux computers.

-Sure apple and google are popular and having their days in the sun. Look beyond the main stream in all aspects of life, and you will find so much more. Seek individuality, beauty, nonconformity, nature, books, the human being, and you will find these things do not come from advertisements, top 40, and expensive fashion electronics.

-One thing I do like about wayland is trying to simplify the programming model. Reminds of of SDL with the concept of frame buffers in windows.

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Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 18:06 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (12 responses)

>-Anyone developing on a laptop full time is due for some serious hand, neck, and back injuries. (this is not flame bate, but a very serious warning from experience of many)

I've been doing it for more than 10 years. You can put a laptop on a table, you know.

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 19:24 UTC (Thu) by tstover (guest, #56283) [Link] (11 responses)

give it about another 6 years. Somewhere around year 17-18 is when I was forced to address the situation.

Sure just like "everything else" the con artists, lawyers etc, are out there with some just stupid comments, but that doesn't mean there isn't a real danger.

Of course this has much to do with how tall you are, how big your hands are, etc. Also most of the hand problems are actually do to unknowingly bending ones wrists while sleeping. Research has found people who type allot or play guitar for instance often start to do that. Eyes are another area to start taking care of.

Sure a quick session here and there is fine, but if your are going to sit down for the day its another story.

When I put one on a table, I put something under it to keep my neck from having to bend down, and use an external keyboard & mouse (preferably kinesis advantage and kensington trackball)

Leaning forward hunched over in the "oger position" will drop you for sure, given enough time. The blood flow in your neck being pinched off also exponentially increases your chances of a stroke.

These are not irrecoverable injuries though. It was actually the best thing that ever happened to me. After chiropractor + physical therapy, diet and exorcise put the lifestyle induced diabetes back in the closet. I've never been healthier.

No B.S. I tell these younger folks all the time about these things. If this is your career and you plan be able to do this for decades, then you really need to take care of your body. Stop eating the poisons, and get some real exorcise. Never underestimate how closely related your physical and mental health are either.

So in conclusion, X11 network transparency is a feature I like.

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 20:23 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (9 responses)

Leaning forward hunched over in the "oger position" will drop you for sure, given enough time.

This is kind of strange, because people who needed to read a lot used lecterns for centuries - and if you open your laptop case to about 130-140° you basically get the same thing on about optimal distance from eyes. It's not as if human body is designed to only ever see the sky, you know.

I think the problems with laptops starts when people try to uncritically apply rules designed for desktops (screen is vertical, top of the viewing screen at eye level, etc). But laptop's screen is way below you! If you'll constantly bend your body in the position to put your eyes at the level with the top of the screen I'll be surprised if you'll manage even few years! Good keyboard is harder to find but this is where YMMV significantly: some people have trouble even with good ergonomic keyboards, some can live with laptops just fine. I, for one, find ThinkPad's keyboard easier to deal with then traditional Keyboard+Mouse combo - because I don't need to move hands to use mouse: trackpoint is right in the middle of keyboard, after all (if I need precision then mouse is obviously better, I'm talking about web surfing, text editing, etc).

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 20:31 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

you can get full size keyboards with a trackpoint (or with a touchpad below the spacebar, almost as good)

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 20:46 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

you can get full size keyboards with a trackpoint

There are very few of them and they are no better then ThinkPad's built-in one, so what's the point?

or with a touchpad below the spacebar, almost as good

Not even close. Either you need to use thumb to move mouse pointer (way less precise then when you use index finger) or you need to move hands (and if I'll do that then I'll prefer traditional mouse over touchpad becase, again, it's more precise).

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 21:23 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

> There are very few of them and they are no better then ThinkPad's built-in one, so what's the point?

the rest of the keyboard is much better

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 21:53 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

the rest of the keyboard is much better

How come? Most of the look like this - basically laptop keyboard without a laptop. Not exactly sure how separation of keyboard from laptop can suddenly make it "much better".

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 22:45 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

two things.

1. having it be separate lets you position it better.

2. I was actually assuming that you would get a 'real' keyboard. In the past I've seen full-size M series type 'clicky' keyboards that have the erasermouse pointer in them.

by the way, I somewhat question if a thumb on a trackpad is really that much less accurate than the erasermouse joysticks, but I guess that's a personal preference :-)

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 20:43 UTC (Thu) by tstover (guest, #56283) [Link] (3 responses)

Using a lectern one is either standing, which has totally different muscle usage in the back (and you wouldn't do it all day), or has it closer to eye level than a laptop on a table. Reading is still a problem for me. Usually I have to sit a table to prop up my elbows and hold the book higher up. I'm an extreme case though. Sometimes certain car wreck injuries create the same problems for people. hunched over computer use leads to condition known as "upper cross syndrome", which can sometime be seen in swimmers and certain weight lifting patters. It's awful.

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 20:52 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

Using a lectern one is either standing, which has totally different muscle usage in the back (and you wouldn't do it all day), or has it closer to eye level than a laptop on a table. Reading is still a problem for me.

This may be the key difference. I have 20/20 vision (rarity today, I know) thus text on latop in aforementioned position is just perfect for me.

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 16, 2012 21:08 UTC (Thu) by tstover (guest, #56283) [Link]

> This may be the key difference. I have 20/20 vision (rarity today, I know)

as do I. (up until a few years ago it was even better than that). For many the issue is very much leaning forward to get closer to the screen. One of the many reasons I recommend monitor arms for desktop systems.

Torso height is the other big factor. If you sit with proper posture without bending your neck and your eyes can look close to straight ahead - then great! Many people have to sharply look down to do this which is unnatural to say the least. This causes the had to bend down, which eventually caused the back to slouch.

If you are reading this and you find your self doing this, please take the chance to start new habits.

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 22, 2012 7:39 UTC (Wed) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

I have a few co-workers that have their desks set up so they can stand up and work. I get the impression it's not so bad once you get used to it. Sort of like sleeping on a hard floor. It seems weird for a while, but doing that for a year or so improved some lower back issues I had quite a bit. People can stand for hours idling their time away on electronics... haven't you seen the lines at Apple stores :D ?

Wayland - Beyond X (The H)

Posted Feb 23, 2012 18:57 UTC (Thu) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link]

tstover, thank you for your very sensible comments about posture.