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Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 9:15 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
In reply to: Facebook Interface by zzxtty
Parent article: Day: A New Approach to GNOME Application Design

What the hell is a "power user" ? ... it is just a random buzz word without any meaning.

Does it simply mean "someone stuck to old technologies and unable / unwilling to adapt to changes" ?

And you can and will be able to use multiple windows in gnome3 just fine. I am working with multiple windows and workspaces and I would not want to go back to the old style win95 interface.

So no the target audience is not "single application user" also the the blog is about applications maximizing themselves by default. You can unmaximize them, open other windows, resize them, move them around, tile them etc etc.


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Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 9:53 UTC (Sun) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

What the hell is a "power user" ?

Someone who is royally fed up with GNOME 3.

Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 10:13 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Power is user is user who knows enough to tangle his (or her) system enough to make it unusable, but who don't know enough to make it usable again (without full reinstall).

It rarely makes sense to develop anything for power user.

Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 14:40 UTC (Sun) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (38 responses)

> What the hell is a "power user" ?

I'd say anyone clueful enough to locate gnome3 authors and give them un-requested feedback

Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 16:54 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (37 responses)

Odd I though I have read about the mighty "power users" way before gnome3 existed.

Facebook Interface

Posted Feb 12, 2012 17:41 UTC (Sun) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (36 responses)

Definition of power user:

pow*er us*er (noun) \ˈpau̇(-ə)r\ \ˈyü-zər\

1. (obsolete): A user who is not only is knowledgeable enough to be aware of advanced features in computers, but has the desire and ability to take advantage of advanced features.

1. (modern): A user who loudly complains about the lack of a GUI button or slider to enable a niche feature, but is too lazy to be bothered to edit configuration, install plugins, or search Google to get it/enable it.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 12, 2012 18:13 UTC (Sun) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (35 responses)

No, your definitions are off.

1. (modern): A user who has, over the years, developed a workflow which is profoundly efficient for himself or herself only to have said workflow disrupted for no good reason by über-chic GUI designers who think they know better than anyone else what the One True Workflow should be.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 12, 2012 19:39 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

glass half empty people :P

Power User definition

Posted Feb 12, 2012 19:43 UTC (Sun) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (32 responses)

No.

That is called a 'normal user'.

People don't like change. When people see change they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it's a improvement or not. They will bitch, always. ALWAYS.

_ALWAYS_

_EVERY_SINGLE_TIME_.

Doesn't matter if they are 'power users' or not.

Justification doesn't enter into it. It's a emotional response, not a rational one. Rationalization happens later when somebody has to attempt to defend their statements. This is why people just throw out terms like 'workflow' and 'power user' which have no real definition and thus are difficult to discuss rationally.

Then when a person points out that they can still have their sloppy focus (or that it's a planned feature), or set number of virtual desktops, or tiling interface, or scripted interface, or arrange things how they like it etc etc.. just like they had it before they just ignore it completely and will complain about the same exact things later on. Because it's not really the problem they are having with it.

A smart person behaving rationally is going to be smart enough to simply say:

"I don't care if it's better or not. They changed things and I don't like it."

Which is, actually, very easy to understand. I run into this constantly with all sorts of things far beyond computer desktops. Cars, color of houses, the way streets are laid out, the way their diet coke tastes... I is one of the very significant reasons why Linux has never caught up on the desktop.

To which the obvious rational response is:

"That is fine. Just use CentOS, Redhat, (or Debian Stable) for your Gnome 2 desktop. You can continue to avoid any change until 2021 or so, at which time Redhat will stop supplying security updates"

Everybody can have their cake and eat it, too. Problem solved, or at least deferred for 7-8 years. This is one of the reasons we have things like CentOS or Debian Stable.

Just go and look back at what people are saying: Personal attacks against developers. Calling users 'babies'. Claiming that they are making interfaces that are for 'idiots' and such things when it's obvious that the newer system is significantly more flexible and powerful... It is just people lashing out on a emotional level. Like they are hurt or something.

On a slightly side note:

What I find amazing is that more people don't realize that being incredibly anally retentive about the positioning and arranging of windows among their desktops is a trained behavior (on a almost unconscious level) that is the result a significant design flaw in their desktop/window manager.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 12, 2012 22:34 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> People don't like change.

And people like stupid change even less.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 2:35 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

drag, you are full of ****.

I don't hate change. I hate bad change.

I loved changing from MS-DOS to UNIX because that was an improvement. I loved changing from twm to KDE 1 (or 2? can't remember) because that was an improvement.

KDE 2 to KDE 3 was also an improvment. KDE3 to 4, not so much.

twm to GNOME 1 was an improvement. GNOME 1 to 2 was OK. And any of the above to XFCE4 was an improvement.

I have changed my "desktop environment" at least 4 times since I started using Linux and at least 8 times since I started with UNIX.

So don't dismiss my comments with "Ah, ignore the whinger because he hates change."

You are wrong. I like good change.

I hate bad change.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 7:41 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (19 responses)

> People don't like change. When people see change they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it's a improvement or not. They will bitch, always. ALWAYS.
> _ALWAYS_
> _EVERY_SINGLE_TIME_.

I call your bluff. You sound rather sure of yourself, and go on for great length, but your premise is flawed.

My evidence: people gravitating to hybrid cars, iPads, smart phones, etc. Heck, trade magazines and blogs are basically long homages to change. And people love it.

So, I guess I'm saying: [Citation Needed].

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 8:43 UTC (Mon) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

Good call.

I think the thing the people really don't like is the feeling that they aren't in control.

When things don't change, people can feel like they are in control because they don't won't it to change, and it doesn't.

When people make a deliberate decision to initiate or accept a change, then again they feel like they are in control (they may have been manipulated by clever advertising, but that isn't relevant - they *feel* like they are in control). So hybrid cars etc are easy to explain.

When someone decides to accept a software update and there are little changes, they might not like them but they can probably accept it because they chose to perform the update after all.

But when you accept an update and it causes big changes, then the effect seems out of proportion with the decision and you get a strong feeling that you are out of control. *That* is what people don't like. Ever.

So I recommend small continuous changes which are - where possible - selectable ("Would you like to try the new Frobnicator widget once(1), every time (Y) or not now (N)?[1/Y/N]").

I call this "Evolution, not revolution" - I bet no-one has heard of that idea before...

(sorry - no citation).

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 11:23 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (17 responses)

> people gravitating to hybrid cars

Well they are pretty much the same as "normal" cars from a drivers pov. i.e No need to learn new stuff; no need to adapt to changes which seems to be one of the primary reasons people hate changes so much.

> iPads

Tables are not any "changes" they are new toys / tools. People don't replace anything with tablets they just buy it as an additional device. And no comparing sales to traditional computers does not prove anything. Some people are claiming "tablets are replacing PCs" ... but most PCs are "good enough" for what they are used for so people rather spend their money on new shiny stuff rather then buying a new PC.

> smart phones

That's the only point that is true here but the marketing and media hype seems to be stronger then peoples resistance to changes.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 12:36 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (9 responses)

Again, I say full of ****.

People don't replace anything with tablets they just buy it as an additional device

I know several people who have replaced their laptops with tablets. Could you provide citations to back up your points?

I don't know if you are a GNOME developer, but you certainly act like one: When people criticize the direction GNOME is taking, you insult them by saying they're just whiners who hate change instead of actually seeing if they have any valid points.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 12:55 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (8 responses)

> I know several people who have replaced their laptops with tablets. Could you provide citations to back up your points?

I know several people who buy them as additional toys. So? The argument "people are buying more tablets" => "people are replacing PCs with tablets" is just flawed. Where is your citation to back *your* point?

Anyway you want citations there you go: http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Touch-oder-Tasten-1430422.... (its German though). Basically the paragraph "Kein Notebook-Ersatz" ("No laptop replacement") is worth reading.

> I don't know if you are a GNOME developer

I am.

> you insult them by saying they're just whiners who hate change instead of actually seeing if they have any valid points.

So you consider "It is bad change" valid feedback to work with?

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 14:41 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (5 responses)

So you consider "It is bad change" valid feedback to work with?

Yes, absolutely. If GNOME were not Free Software (ie, if you had to satisfy paying customers) you'd pay attention to such feedback. My job is creating software for paying customers and we certainly pay attention to our customers when they don't like a change we propose.

This is one of the few weaknesses of the Free Software development model, alas: Developers can happily ignore feedback without much risk. They get stuck in confirmation bias without any cold dose of reality to shake them out of it.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 16:39 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (4 responses)

> Yes, absolutely. If GNOME were not Free Software (ie, if you had to satisfy paying customers) you'd pay attention to such feedback.

No, when that happens (I have to do that but not with GNOME) I just do ask the customers *what* is bad. "It is bad change something" is just worthless noise IMO.

> This is one of the few weaknesses of the Free Software development model, alas: Developers can happily ignore feedback without much risk.

Not implementing everything every single user ask for is not ignoring feedback. That's not how it works. Fortunately many do know how to provide feedback which results into improvements being done (compare GNOME 3.0 to 3.2 and the now in development 3.4 version).

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 17:04 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

No, when that happens (I have to do that but not with GNOME) I just do ask the customers *what* is bad. "It is bad change something" is just worthless noise IMO.

Well, of course it's "worthless noise" IYO. That's what I mean by confirmation bias.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 17:06 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] (1 responses)

OK I give up you seem to be just trolling.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 17:31 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I'm not trolling. GNOME developers made a bunch of changes to the way users interact with the UI. Many GNOME users said "Those changes are very bad."

I really don't see how feedback can be any clearer. You did X and users replied "Don't do X!"

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 18:05 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

I'm quite bad at parsing implicit communication, but it still seems to me that "this change is bad" is likely to imply "this change is for the worse".

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 15:09 UTC (Mon) by cmm (guest, #81305) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, GUI-related arguments are necessarily subjective.

The fact is that I had a setup I was reasonably happy with (Gnome 2) for several years, and had it yanked from under me and replaced by something I neither like out of the box (in fact, couldn't even /figure out/ out of the box -- Gnome 3 gets a huge FAIL for discoverability) nor can configure into something resembling my old setup (unless I want to dig through an alphabetically-sorted pile of "extensions" with mostly unobvious names and unknown quality -- why thank you very much!). I like change when the change solves a problem. I had no problem with Gnome 2.

Examples? How about this waste of space on the bottom of my wide^Wshort screen? Why is it there? How do I get rid of it? How about not grabbing "Alt-Tab" (which I actually use in Emacs -- I prefer window-management shortcuts to use the otherwise-useless "Windows" modifier key)? Can I make the top thing (I understand it's not called "panel" anymore) be vertical? Or at least make it auto-hide? That's just off the top of my head, and do realize that in the presence of other options (which is not something you Gnome people can change, thank god) those problems are deal-breakers.

I'm not saying Gnome 3 is unworkable for me -- it may well be workable, but the fact that I'd have to spend significant effort to make it usable is irritating, and the additional fact that there are other options means that you a) lost a user and b) that lost user has moved on with whatever opinion of your work he had formed on the initial encounter.

I'd shut up if I thought I'm some sort of OCD-afflicted weirdo, but I know for a fact that I'm not: there are a lot of us, see. And we'll stay with those initial opinions. Deal.

You made your own bed, guys, now please stop whinging about your users "not liking change".

(Also, keep coming up with New Revolutionary Visions every 2 months and the CADT impression of you will only get stronger.)

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 20:33 UTC (Mon) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> Can I make the top thing (I understand it's not called "panel" anymore) be vertical? Or at least make it auto-hide?

Don't ask for things like that - you'll be told to go and write an extension.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 15:36 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (6 responses)

> Tablets are not any "changes" they are new toys / tools.

I must not understand... This sentence appears to be contradictory. New tools ARE change, are they not?

> People don't replace anything with tablets

Flight manuals: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-13/u-s-air-force...
Cash Registers: http://allthingsd.com/20110823/apples-ipad-already-replac...
Text Books: http://www.inquisitr.com/138739/ipad-replacing-many-textb...
Medical Devices: http://www.padgadget.com/2012/02/08/medical-industry-fast...
etc. etc. etc.

> That's the only point that is true here but the marketing and media hype seems to be stronger then peoples resistance to changes.

That's an amazingly cynical attitude. Marketing is NOT the reason the smart phone succeeded.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 19:43 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm confused. I thought GNOME 3's entire design was predicated on the assumption that people would be using tablets for it all the time rather than PCs? (I can't see any sense to most of its design decisions except in light of that.)

Yet now we get 'people don't replace anything with tablets'. Hmm.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 23:03 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (4 responses)

I don't think they believe there will only be tablet but there will be a lot of them and it's a new open market that Apple and Microsoft haven't completely locked up yet. Keeping the UI flexible so that it can be used both on a tablet and a traditional desktop, without doubling the work, seems to make logical engineering sense. The two big vendors, Apple and Microsoft have independently come to the same conclusion as they are merging a bunch of their smartphone/tablet UI onto their desktop PC systems. I'm guessing that using a mouse on a UI that was designed with touch in mind is much easier than going the other way. Have you ever tried a traditional Windows tablet in the last 20 years? Awful, all sorts of mouse-dependent behavior that doesn't work with a touchscreen.

They may be right or they may be wrong but they came to their conclusions logically and reasonably AFAICT. We'll see in 5 years if these design decisions bear fruit.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 18, 2012 0:37 UTC (Sat) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link] (3 responses)

The UI you need for a tablet is very different from the UI you need for a desktop. Apple recognizes that and hasn't tried to make the user interfaces the same between the two.

> I'm guessing that using a mouse on a UI that was designed with
> touch in mind is much easier than going the other way.

Bad guess. There's a lot of touch operations that have no mouse equivalent, like anything using multitouch.

The mouse is a precision instrument, whereas touch is very imprecise.

Users get annoyed when they have to move their mouse a long distance, whereas tapping a different part of the touch screen is easy.

> Have you ever tried a traditional Windows tablet in the last 20
> years? Awful, all sorts of mouse-dependent behavior that doesn't
> work with a touchscreen.

Wow-- it's almost like the two products need different user interfaces. Maybe someone should make a note of that. A lot of companies and open source organizations have sunk a huge amount of time and money into the foolish assumption that tablet UIs are relevant on the desktop, and vice versa.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 18, 2012 6:15 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (2 responses)

> The UI you need for a tablet is very different from the UI you need for a desktop. Apple recognizes that and hasn't tried to make the user interfaces the same between the two.

That's just nonsense. Most of the user-visible changes in Lion and the announce features for Mountain Lion are the transfer of iOS UI elements to the desktop (such as the app launcher or Notification Center) and even whole applications (like Notes, Messaging)

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/02/apple-unleashes...

Power User definition

Posted Feb 18, 2012 10:14 UTC (Sat) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link] (1 responses)

That article says that they added "messages, notes, and reminders" to "Mac OS Mountain Lion." I don't see anything in there about making the user interface the same between the desktop and portable devices.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 18, 2012 18:11 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

If you didn't see that it was the same app and same ui then you must have not been looking, I don't know what else to say.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 13:34 UTC (Mon) by aliguori (guest, #30636) [Link] (1 responses)

>People don't like change. When people see change they don't like it. It doesn't matter if it's a improvement or not. They will bitch, always. ALWAYS.

That's because there's a cost associated with adopting to a change. If there isn't a perceived benefit to change that outweighs the cost, then people are going to be unhappy about it.

Think of it like maintaining API compatibility in libc. At some point, someone realized that read() could be improved by adding an offset to eliminate the need for two syscalls (lseek and read). If they would have just changed read(), that would have broke a lot of applications. So instead they introduced pread().

Yes, having 2 (or 3, or 4) different calls for read() is "crufty". We'd all rather work in code bases that never maintained these sorts of things.

But it's unrealistic to build a library and pretend like there's zero-cost in porting applications if the library breaks API compatibility.

Likewise, it's unrealistic to build a GUI environment and pretend like there's zero-cost in learning new workflows/options. Imagine how upset people would get if glibc started breaking ABI compatibility every couple years in core POSIX calls. That's effectively what Gnome is doing.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 21:30 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

That's a nice way of phrasing that. I hope you don't mind me stealing that metaphor. :)

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 18:19 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> Justification doesn't enter into it. It's a emotional response, not a rational one

This is where I think you're wrong: Sometimes it's both. Dismissing all criticism as an irrational and emotional reaction to change is unhelpful. I understand that it gets frustrating to be constantly on the receiving end of bitching from people like me; try not to let it get to you.

> What I find amazing is that more people don't realize that being incredibly anally retentive about the positioning and arranging of windows among their desktops is a trained behavior (on a almost unconscious level) that is the result a significant design flaw in their desktop/window manager.

Curiously enough I have been running with mostly-maximized as my model for many years and I abuse virtual desktops heavily to make this work. I observe the following behaviors as a result:

* No matter what my "application" is for the current desktop I will always, sooner or later, also open an xterm that mostly sits behind the "main" window and alt-tab to it as needed.
* On some desktops my "application" is really a task involving multiple applications and in those cases they're never maximized.
* Max-width and especially max-height are usually all the window tweaking you need when not running maximized.
* Alt tab needs to be single-desktop, otherwise the list is crazily long.
* More desktops==better task isolation==better productivity.
* I almost never spend time tweaking window size or position.
* In the GIMP I'm always tweaking window size and position.

For some reason I also notice that settings-type windows seem hostile when they use the whole screen. I'm not sure why.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 19:03 UTC (Mon) by cmorgan (guest, #71980) [Link] (5 responses)

+1

People have several alternatives. They can use another version of the distribution, another distribution or another OS. They can get involved and help shape the future. Complaining is a LOT easier though.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 21:44 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (4 responses)

Most people have significantly better things to do than switch the OS every six months because some hobbyist UX designer decided to swap things around for no real reason.

I know the FOSS community has trouble understanding this, but most people do not use a computer just to use a computer; they are not computer geeks. They don't think that installing 20 different alternatives to try them all out is fun. They don't think that seeing new technology is fun. They don't think that shell scripting to work around a GUI flaw is fun. All of these things take time, and that time could be "better" spent doing something that most people do find fun. That may be some other computer-related task (socializing online, playing a game, etc.) or something completely unrelated to computers (going to the bar, hanging out with friends or family, hitting the beach, playing a sport, reading a book, etc.).

So this is the problem. Either (a) you admit that the Linux desktops like GNOME are by geeks for geeks and nobody else and quit eschewing the geeky power users by saying you're aiming for more casual users, or (b) you realize that non-geeks aren't like geeks and stop the endless churn and massive redesigns and instead focus on polishing the little details of the things that already worked just fine and your supposed 10's of millions of users are already comfortable and happy with.

As it is in GNOME land, both groups of users are frequently getting knocked over. I have absolutely zero doubt that the GNOME designers and developers like what they're making (or they wouldn't be making it), but making what you like and what other people like are often different tasks. As a game dev, for instance, I still think MUDs are the pinnacle of online interactions, but you don't see me trying to convince people that GemStone IV is going to take over World of Warcraft by just replacing the text commands with touchscreen gestures, do you. It would be silly to believe something like that.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 13, 2012 23:53 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (3 responses)

You could say the same about most of the Microsoft Office versions. Loads of change between versions.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 14, 2012 0:17 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (2 responses)

Really? Do they completely redo the entire UI with no ability to go back to the previous interface? Do they routinely jettison unpopular features? Do they break existing settings and workflow?

Business users would never put up with having to re-learn Word's interface all the time.

Yes, there are loads of changes. But they're done with a keen eye toward keeping existing users comfortable. I agree, it's a great example.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 14, 2012 0:19 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

look at the ribbon menu approach that microsoft changed to, and look at the number of people who complain about it (at least they give you the option to switch back, at least for now)

Power User definition

Posted Feb 14, 2012 0:26 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> at least they give you the option to switch back, at least for now

This is the critical difference. As far as I can tell, Microsoft spends a lot of time ensuring existing users have an easy path forward.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 17, 2012 12:33 UTC (Fri) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

Change is only an annoyance. What's important is what comes after, whether the users cries out in terror or delight when they learn their new workflow.

You might want to skip on the condescending attitude. It prohibits your understanding of the issues involved.

Power User definition

Posted Feb 12, 2012 19:50 UTC (Sun) by SiB (subscriber, #4048) [Link]

A power user either does not use a desktop at all, but just a window
manager. Or he/she can adapt both the workflow and the desktop tools
when those evolve with time.

My fvwm2rc.m4 configuration file works almost unchanged for 12 years
now. But once in a while it gets me too. Recently, the Gnome people
decided it is a good idea not to offer the cwd as default location in
the gtk file chooser. Lots of programs now offer me an almost useless
file chooser. I did not figure out how to fix that.

When I start a printed circuit board editor in a shell from the
project directory, and I need to reload a netlist from this same
project directory, then I do not expect that I need to click all the
way into that project directory again, which is particularly annoying
if said project directory is nfs-mounted through a VPN over a ADSL
link.


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