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WebOS reborn?

By Jonathan Corbet
December 12, 2011
On December 9, HP ended a long period of rumors and speculation with the announcement that it would release the code for its webOS platform under an open-source license. Very little information beyond that brief press release is available, so the net has duly responded with lots more speculation. To some, webOS is about to start a new and better life; to others, this announcement is the last gasp of a dying product. Never one to let a prime handwaving opportunity to pass unexploited, your editor has written some thoughts of his own.

In many ways, the mobile device market at the end of 2011 is in far better shape than many of us would have ever dared to hope for. Powerful handsets running Linux are ubiquitous, relatively cheap, and, in many cases, mostly open to hacking by their users. A great deal of creativity has been unleashed on both the hardware and software sides, to everybody's benefit. Linux has become the system for the bulk of these devices, and the companies that make them are getting better at contributing their work upstream. In many parts of the kernel, the old problem of missing hardware support has been replaced by the problem of dealing with the massive amounts of code contributed by manufacturers. That is, as they say, a high-quality problem; in many ways, life is good.

Naturally, things could be better for everybody involved. The bulk of those devices are running Android, which falls somewhat short of what many of us would like to see in an open-source project. The direction of the project is closely controlled by Google, source releases have been delayed and withheld (is it truly "open source" if one cannot get the source for the code running on one's device?), and some companies have better access to the source than others. Manufacturers have reason to dislike depending on Google for access, and they worry about being relegated to the commodity side of the business. As has been written here before, Android is a huge and valuable gift, but we can acknowledge that gift while still wishing for something a little better.

The dominant players in this market (handsets and tablets, mainly) are Apple's iOS and Android. The former is not available to other manufacturers, leaving them with a single choice for their operating software. In such a situation, there should certainly be room for another contender. Microsoft might yet fill that space with Windows 8 Mobile, but it does not have to be that way; Microsoft has always struggled in this market. Wouldn't it be nice if another Linux-based system could establish itself as a major mobile platform instead?

There is no shortage of alternatives in this area. Tizen announced itself as a sort of successor to MeeGo in September, but almost nothing has been heard from this project since. Various developers are trying to keep a MeeGo derivative alive as a community-driven project; the resulting "Nemo" project has made a few releases for the N900, but does not appear to be progressing quickly. The GNOME project has its eyes on this market with its "GNOME OS" concept based on GNOME 3; KDE's "Plasma Active" has very similar goals. Canonical, too, has ambitions in the mobile arena. Most of these projects have actively been looking for manufacturers to ship their software, but there are not a lot of high-profile results to point to thus far. Will webOS do better?

Those who have expressed pessimistic views certainly have their reasons for doing so. As noted above, Linux-based mobile platforms are not in especially short supply; webOS is a late addition to a crowded field. Given the time that has passed since HP abandoned its webOS plans and the rumors that went around, it seems certain that HP tried, unsuccessfully, to find a buyer for webOS before deciding to open-source it. If nobody wanted to own the system before, what are the chances that they will want to use an open-source version in the future?

That said, webOS is a system with a history of shipping in real products and with a core of enthusiastic users; the alternatives have neither of those. Given code, developers, users, and space in the market, it should be possible for a system like webOS to establish itself and prosper. Getting there, though, will depend on a number of things.

One of those, obviously, is the code itself. Is the quality of the code such that the community can pick it up and carry it forward without a huge amount of cleanup work? Will all of the code be released, or will it be necessary to find or create alternatives for pieces that have been withheld? And, crucially, how long will it take for the code to appear? Every day that passes between now and the code release will decrease the relevance of the whole exercise. If HP wants webOS to succeed, it needs to get the code out there quickly.

Then, there is the quality of HP's management of the project. The press release promises "good, transparent and inclusive governance to avoid fragmentation", which can mean almost anything. "Avoid fragmentation," alas, is often a euphemism for "maintain a firm grip on the project and where it can go." If, instead, HP were to create a structure that gave up some control and showed faith in the community it hopes to build, it could find itself with a crowd of enthusiastic contributors. That said, HP needs to remain at the forefront of that crowd for some time; it will be hard to convince others to contribute to webOS if HP stops doing so. Licensing, too, is a clear concern; some licenses are rather more attractive to contributors than others. HP has not yet said which license it will use, or whether copyright assignments will be required to contribute to the project.

Finally, the code is of limited interest without useful devices to run it on. Google has made a point of ensuring the existence of unlocked devices and making it easy for developers to get their hands on those devices. HP would be wise to emulate this example if it wants to developers to hack on - and improve - the code.

In summary: webOS has a real chance as an open-source project if HP manages things correctly and gets the code out there quickly. There is an existing code base, room in the market, a desire for alternatives, and a group of ready customers. That is far more than most projects have at their launch. The open-source version of webOS has a hard road ahead of it with many challenges to overcome but, with some luck and careful management, there is a real possibility for interesting things to happen.


to post comments

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 12, 2011 23:45 UTC (Mon) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link] (23 responses)

Windows 8 Mobile?
There was Windows Mobile upto version 6.53
Then came Windows Phone 7 (originally announce + "series". MS has a fetish for crappy long names) and recently WP7 got an update and is now at version 7.5.
If the was supposed to be joke and I didn't get it. Sorry.
Anyways, I think the ball is now in Tizens court. I hope the decide to cancel it, it just sounds too stupid.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 10:00 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (22 responses)

Windows 7.5 (eg Nokia Lumia 800) is getting excellent reviews. I expect Windows 8 to be even better. This is a serious comment.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 11:59 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (21 responses)

Of course Windows Mobile is getting good reviews. Microsoft is a expert at astroturfing. They have been doing it since the usenet days. Far before most people knew what 'astroturfing' was. Combine this with their expert use of pre-rendered 'product demos' and vapor product launches they have been able to put many competitors out of business without having to write a single line of code.

Their employees are currently out in full force along with their paid advertising minions and fanboys extolling the virtues of the UI, programming languages, development tools, and talking up how easy it was to make world-class applications on along with how supportive Microsoft was, etc etc etc.

Why?

So far Windows Mobile is getting trashed on the world stage. Right now we live in a world were Samsung Bada (a little turd of a proprietary open source hybrid OS) is outselling all the Windows Mobile versions combined by a healthy margin. If Nokia moved to Android at least they would be competitive with people like Samsung.

But like 'search' and 'xbox' Microsoft will continue to pour billions of dollars into Mobile until they stumble across something that works. Trying to deliver a knock out punch to Microsoft's mobile strategy is like a Muay Thai boxer trying to deliver a lethal round hose kick to a Soviet 2TE10U diesel electric locomotive chugging along at 100km/h.

Windows Phone, Nemo, ...

Posted Dec 13, 2011 13:12 UTC (Tue) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

The Windows Phone 7.5 is quite good, even though a lot of the review praise is because of the Lumia's physical case + screen which is the same as Nokia N9. N9's Qt/Linux is better than Windows Phone 7.5 quite objectively speaking, but it doesn't matter as there isn't at least immediate followers to it. What matters that Windows Phone 7.5 is good enough - smooth in basic usage (like iPhone or N9) and relatively flexible (although not so far as Android, but better than iPhone).

So there's a definite need for N9 level of future Linux products as well, since Android is probably about as high currently as it gets, and it might go down in the future. And even if Android would go even more blazingly forwards, as mentioned there'd be definitely welcoming for GNU/FSO/Qt/GTK/Linux products based on more open groundwork instead instead of the Android userspace and closed development.

And a comment to Nemo - it releases also for N950/N9, not only the old N900.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 13:15 UTC (Tue) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link] (14 responses)

Well, it is still Windows PHONE 7.
And maybe the reviewers are honest, but WebOS did get great reviews too. Great reviews don't sell products like bad reviews can sink them.

I think the Metro interface is too foreign for your average Joe and the Windows name was a really bad choice. It stands for complexity and problems for all the people I know.

MS market share in smartphones dropped again from 2.7 down to 1.X, that certainly is Bada territory.

We may not like it, but let's face it: Your average consumer wants "Apps" and an Iphone. A lot of people are not willing to pay the Apple premium and therefore buy Android, because it is at first glance fairly similar and it has all the apps people care about.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 13:27 UTC (Tue) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] (13 responses)

> MS market share in smartphones dropped again from 2.7 down to 1.X

Source, and timescales please.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 13:34 UTC (Tue) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link] (12 responses)

http://www.golem.de/1108/85650.html

Google Translation is your friend.(coz I can't be bothered finding the real Gartner link)

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 18:06 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (11 responses)

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1848514

Gartner in this case is going off of sales figures for Quarter 3 of 2011 by publicly traded companies.

Microsoft went from 3rd Quarter 2010 sales of 2.7% of the market to 1.5%. During the same time period Bada went from 1.1 to 2.2%.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 18:48 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (10 responses)

The point is, with Nokia entering the game it's all going to change. Most Americans may not know it, but Nokia is a pretty big player in the rest of the world.

I saw a quote (not sure from whom, but undoubtedly from an American) when the Nokia-Microsoft alliance was announced: "two turkeys don't make an eagle." Nokia is no turkey in the hardware department -- a typical Nokia phone can handle way more abuse than most smartphones. And it looks like Microsoft is beginning to get its act together on the mobile software side. Meanwhile, customers may be buying Android but are not Apple-like fanbois: they will switch to Windows as soon as it is "good enough" -- especially business customers who want "Microsoft Office", not some cheap knockoff.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:07 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link] (7 responses)

> I saw a quote (not sure from whom, but undoubtedly from an
> American) when the Nokia-Microsoft alliance was announced:
> "two turkeys don't make an eagle.".

That quote is from Google's Vic Gundotra.

Obviously not an unbiased observer. But the quote is still pretty funny. :)

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:26 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (5 responses)

Ah, an American but born in India, and an ex-Microsoftie to boot. I looked it up and apparently he tweeted this before the alliance was officially announced. Interesting.

Oddly, though I have not used Windows extensively since 3.1 (I started on linux in 1994, in grad school), I am not feeling apprehensive about MS's comeback in this space. First, MS is not as scary (perhaps not even as nasty) as it once was. Second, Android may run the Linux kernel but it's not Linux. I have a Linux environment in a chroot in my android tablet, and it works for me, but it isn't very much better than cygwin on windows. And I don't need that sort of thing on my mobile phone anyway. So I would entirely welcome it if Windows succeeds this time and may even buy my first Windows-only device ever (I've bought Windows computers but always installed Linux or a BSD on them).

And yes, I'm a Nokia fan -- my current Nokia phone is 3 years old, is my primary internet source outside of work (I tether it to my computer), and I'm only considering a new phone because this one doesn't support HSDPA.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 23:58 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link] (4 responses)

To be honest, I don't understand your attitude at all. Android is slightly less open than I would like! ZOMG! I guess I better buy a device with the most closed, proprietary OS possible, as a reaction-- making sure to fund a known patent troll, convicted monopolist, and all around unpleasant organization.

But, whatever...

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 14, 2011 2:54 UTC (Wed) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (3 responses)

Android is slightly less open than I would like!

I didn't say that, and I don't continue discussions with people who put words into my mouth. Have fun talking to yourself now.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 10:55 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (2 responses)

I come to LWN for the insightful adult discussions.

Your "I'm taking my ball and going home" comment is neither. They made a reasonable assumption on your meaning based on what you posted. As you didn't elaborate any further on your meaning an assumption had to be made and you had an opportunity to correct it, rather than do so you had a tantrum that I can only assume was because the comment's criticism hit a little to close to home. Next time rather than the tantrum either don't bother replying or have an adult discussion.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 11:27 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (1 responses)

>They made a reasonable assumption on your meaning based on what you posted.

No, cmcwabe made a sarcastic comment based on something I did not say or imply.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 11:31 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

ps -- since you ask, what I said was that Android, despite having a Linux kernel, is not Linux. By which I meant the userland is different and not Unix-like. I said a few other things. I said nothing about the openness (or otherwise) of Android.

Actually it's quote from Anssi Vanjoki...

Posted Dec 13, 2011 21:36 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Sorry, but no, Vic Gundotra have not invented the pharse. He just quoted former Nokia man...

Not original, yet eerily appropriate...

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:29 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (1 responses)

Nokia was a pretty big player in the rest of the world. They've been in free-fall this year. Right now, they'll be lucky if their new products stabilize their market share before they hit the bottom or their financial resources dry out (they've been clearing inventory at a loss all the year to keep a presence in stores).

Nokia's biggest asset was that a lot of people got used to buy Nokia/Symbian phones and didn't want to risk problems by trying anything else, and that isn't a factor anymore.

The only entities that want Nokia to succeed are telcos, because they'd like a third OS supplier (after Google and Apple) to play them all against each other. But telcos are so greedy they suck big time at selling anything to the average Joe, and have consistently succeeded in overpricing and sinking their favorite tech in the past decade (see ATM, MMS, Symbian, J2ME, etc). The users do not care. They like to have less OS alternatives (see network effects, windows, etc)

And even the telcos do not care about Nokia/Windows that much. If RIM or anyone else suddenly grabs enough market share to become a credible third-player, you'll see telcos remove Nokia products from shelves faster than you can say plop.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 11:19 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

Android has already moved into the mid/low end phones. There are Chinese produced basic android phones selling worldwide for ~$100 without contract right now. These phones are big sellers and I'm willing to bet that by the time Nokia gets a real smartphone out there the middle end will be lost to Android entirely and the low end will be under massive assault.

Nokia's biggest advantage comprised two areas, massive volume and name recognition. The volume is dropping off substantially hurting their volume purchases (and the price they get) and the name recognition has been eroded almost entirely by Android. They might have succeeded had they embraced android (2 years ago), differentiated it and used their manufacturing power to undercut the market. But with marketshare gone the manufacturing advantage is gone.

Even today they have positioned themselves as a symbian/windows shop with symbian on the low end and MS running the premium smartphones. That segments their product line with no reasonable application upgrade path. What Nokia management hasn't been paying attention to is that Android is moving into the mid/low end phones. As a linux based system provided for free by google the manufacturers can customize the OS and load it on even dumb phones with little cost. This also provides an upgrade path in that a customer knows they can use the same applications from the cheapest feature phones up to the most expensive smart phones. The asian phone manufacturers get that, Nokia doesn't. Windows will never be positioned to run the middle/low end as MS doesn't care about that.

IMO Nokia has a major management problem, the recent layoffs are only the beginning and most of those jobs are going to move to Asia. I don't expect them to survive 5 years.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 16:52 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (2 responses)

Oh come on, you can't just dismiss any opinion you don't like as "astroturfing" by "minions and fanboys". I'm sure MS has a fat marketing budget for WP7 but that doesn't mean that all positive reviews are automatically corrupt. Your complaints about vaporware are very wide of the mark as well as we are talking about a shipping OS.

Sure WP7 is currently a bit of an also-ran, along with BlackBerry and webOS, compared to the iOS/Android juggernaut but it also hasn't had a carrier or handset maker put their full force behind it either which is changing now that Nokia is entering the fray. They've got a long hill to climb because their product came to the market years later than their largest competitors but people do genuinely seem to like WP7 so I think there is room for them to carve out a decent market share.

As far as Nokia shipping Android, their CEO said in an interview that MS is far more desperate for success than Google and so they were able to get a much better deal and more control over their destiny than they would with Android. The market is currently full of competing Android handset makers and that makes it difficult to stand out, the Android market is also being comoditized and Nokia recognizes that they aren't going to out-compete a vendor like HTC in their core competency of makin'em cheap and stackin'em high. That sounds like a reasonable business assessment to me, informed by what is likely to happen, not what one would like to happen in their dreams 8-)

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:21 UTC (Tue) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link] (1 responses)

> As far as Nokia shipping Android, their CEO said in an interview that MS
> is far more desperate for success than Google and so they were able to get
> a much better deal and more control over their destiny than they would
> with Android. The market is currently full of competing Android handset
> makers and that makes it difficult to stand out, the Android market is
> also being comoditized and Nokia recognizes that they aren't going to
> out-compete a vendor like HTC in their core competency of makin'em cheap
> and stackin'em high. That sounds like a reasonable business assessment to
> me, informed by what is likely to happen, not what one would like to
> happen in their dreams 8-)

If Windows Phone 7 is at all successful, Microsoft will want to have multiple OEMs, the same as Android. Maybe Nokia should ask Dell, HP, Compaq and the rest of the gang how much "control over their destiny" they have as OEMs for Windows. The honest answer would be just about none. They are free to install shovelware on the base Windows install-- that's about it.

It's not so much two turkeys we have here as a turkey and a bird of prey.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:47 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Ah, but in the PC space MS is in a position of power. In the mobile space it's different. Actually, I expect that, even now, Nokia's version of Windows isn't tremendously different from the others, except for Nokia's own apps. But, having used an Android tablet for a few months, I'm not totally convinced of its merits as a stable, easy-to-use, functional platform -- and (to get back on topic here) that's why WebOS, and Meego/Tizen and others, remain relevant.

Windoes mobile reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:21 UTC (Tue) by hamjudo (guest, #363) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't know if it is fair, to the locomotives, to compare them to WinPhone 7.5. They were chugging a long, a long time before any Microsoft Mobile products, and they will probably still be in service long after WinPhone 8 has sunk like the Zune.

Microsoft and Nokia gave away 85,000 Lumia phones. A lot of them went to real bloggers. This is a step up from astroturf, a small step, but still a step. Note that Microsoft also tried to give away mass quantities of Zunes. So this may not work so well in practice. Many of those bloggers felt compelled to point out that "Lumia", is Spanish for prostitute.

Payoffs reborn?

Posted Jan 9, 2012 15:36 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Microsoft and Nokia gave away 85,000 Lumia phones. A lot of them went to real bloggers. This is a step up from astroturf, a small step, but still a step. Note that Microsoft also tried to give away mass quantities of Zunes. So this may not work so well in practice.

I recently had the opportunity to go through various mainstream computing publications of the mid-1990s and the bias towards Microsoft's products, strategy, announcements, presumably paid for in some way by Microsoft, is astonishing to see now: articles supposedly written by a "house writer" reading like promotional materials straight out of Redmond, uncritically stating that whichever Microsoft initiative in question will revolutionise everything before ending with the obligatory Microsoft telephone number. (I never understood what people were supposed to do at that point: call them up and ask for juicy gossip?)

At the time, such bias was obvious to some, but I imagine that for many it was merely youthful enthusiasm in print and nothing to be concerned about: a bit like people now getting excited about the next iPhone. The channels through which Microsoft can influence opinion have changed substantially - there isn't a tame press dominating the consumer's attention who must conform in order to keep getting advertising money - and thus their public relations people obviously have to be more "creative".

Many of those bloggers felt compelled to point out that "Lumia", is Spanish for prostitute.

Well, if the hat fits...

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 12, 2011 23:59 UTC (Mon) by alogghe (subscriber, #6661) [Link] (3 responses)

Does anyone have any insight into the actual webos stack?

X11 in there? I think I heard of one or two things like pulse audio?

How likely is it to be useful to the rest of the free software desktop technologies?

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 1:19 UTC (Tue) by rillian (subscriber, #11344) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't know much about the stack personally, but http://opensource.palm.com/3.0.4/ and http://www.webos-internals.org/ has a variety of useful information.

WebOS was indeed shipping pulseaudio, and a wide variety of other open source software, including libparted under the GPLv3 (they provide a binary-only rootfs updater licensed *only* for updating GPLv3 code. Charming!)

Mostly it was the web application toolkit which wasn't open source, along with the associated device plumbing, IPC and default application set.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 2:18 UTC (Tue) by alogghe (subscriber, #6661) [Link] (1 responses)

Thanks for the links.

I think "LunaSysMgr" is their replacement for X11 :P

Oh well.

Some inside information

Posted Dec 13, 2011 4:50 UTC (Tue) by bcombee (subscriber, #40068) [Link]

LunaSysMgr is a combination of WebKit and a card-stack window manager. There is some X support via homebrew, but that is running micro-X instances in PDK processes that are composited into cards by LSM.

I have some architecture slides in my talks at TxJS and CapitolJS. They're linked from my Lanyrd profile page at http://lanyrd.com/profile/unwiredben/.

If you've got more questions, I'm very active on our dev forms at developer.palm.com.

Ben Combee, Developer Platform Architect, HP webOS Group

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 1:40 UTC (Tue) by samth (guest, #1290) [Link] (8 responses)

Our gentle editor seems to have completely missed the development of Boot To Gecko, a new Linux-based mobile OS being built by Mozilla. Started just a few months ago, it recently made phone calls on real hardware.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 3:58 UTC (Tue) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link] (6 responses)

Yes, I was mildly surprised to see a mention of Tizen - an announcement without a line of code - and not of Boot to Gecko, which has started with code from day 1 and whose daily progress can be tracked in commits as they come in.

I guess though that since Tizen is the "successor" to MeeGo (a project much publicized), people mention it more. It's a little funny though since it seems to not be a successor in any meaningful way, they are basically starting from scratch (with HTML as the development environment - amusingly, like Boot to Gecko and WebOS).

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 4:25 UTC (Tue) by samth (guest, #1290) [Link] (4 responses)

Fancy meeting you here. :)

Another reason is that Tizen and MeeGo and Gnome and Canonical are all conventionally "Linux-related" projects, whereas Mozilla is seen as not as plugged in to the Linux community (as distinct from the broader free-software community). This is unfortunate from both sides, of course, but I think it's real.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 5:34 UTC (Tue) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link] (3 responses)

Hi ;)

I suppose this might be the first direct work by Mozilla on Linux kernel code, but I've always seen Mozilla as a "Linux-related" project. Maybe because I've been using both of them together for many years ;) And on another tangent Mozilla is part of OIN, whose goal is to promote Linux. So not sure I follow what you mean by "not plugged in".

But I could be easily wrong though. If so, maybe this is a good opportunity to work closer together.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 6:01 UTC (Tue) by samth (guest, #1290) [Link] (2 responses)

I too have been using Mozilla (and before that Netscape) with Linux since 1998. What I mean is that Mozilla, for understandable reasons, appears to think of the Linux community as a pretty niche market, and doesn't work hard to be part of the Linux community (again, as distinct from the broader community). This is reflected in the attitude towards distributions, the attitude towards the way the software is packaged, the attitude towards embedding Gecko, and other things. Part of it is just the number of linux machines you see when you look around your office. :)

I've had arguments with Brendan about whether this is a problem, and I understand why it happens. But I agree that it's good for B2G to bring the communities closer.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 6:55 UTC (Tue) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link] (1 responses)

> Part of it is just the number of linux machines you see when you look around your office. :)

I can't speak to the other points you made, I feel I don't have enough of a basis to make a statement either way. However, about the number of Linux machines - there are lots! In my informal survey, Linux is close to half (with OS X a clear majority). It might be that different groups have different preferences, but among developers and in particular platform developers (the people I know), Linux is very popular at Mozilla.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 7:02 UTC (Tue) by samth (guest, #1290) [Link]

Clearly I hang around with the wrong Mozillans. Can't trust those JavaScript-programming, MacBook-carrying types. ;)

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Jan 17, 2012 0:26 UTC (Tue) by jtts (guest, #82341) [Link]

> I guess though that since Tizen is the "successor" to MeeGo (a project much publicized), people mention it more. It's a little funny though since it seems to not be a successor in any meaningful way, they are basically starting from scratch (with HTML as the development environment - amusingly, like Boot to Gecko and WebOS).

I think saying that Tizen is starting from scratch not exactly true. I do agree that Tizen is in not MeeGo's successor in any meaningful way, but that doesn't mean they are starting from scratch. Maybe in Intel's case they are more or less starting from scratch, but not in Samsung's case.

You have to remember that Tizen is a "merger" of two projects: MeeGo and Limo. Samsung has been working on their own Limo implementation called Samsung's Linux Platform (SLP for short) for quite a while now (not to be confused with Bada). At least based on a quick glance at the first code drops from Tizen released on 9. January most of the code seems to come from SLP, not MeeGo (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). For example, Tizen's choice of native tool kit, ELF, has been a part of SLP from start (or at least close enough).

Community-wise, IMHO they both (Intel and Samsung) are starting from scratch though.

If you want to dig up more information, Tizen's web site and Tizen's General Mailing List are good places to start.

Missing Boot to Gecko

Posted Dec 13, 2011 14:28 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I've not totally missed Boot to Gecko - we even ran an article about it. But yes, it slipped my mind when I made that list; it should have been there with the rest.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 8:25 UTC (Tue) by philipstorry (subscriber, #45926) [Link] (8 responses)

My concern with these announcements always is a pragmatic one: will the released source actually be useful?

When you take a commercial OS like this and try to take it open source, you can suddenly find yourself missing chunks of the OS because you bought in 3rd party libraries to do some things.

This is most noticeable in the codec area - there may well be perfectly good open source libraries that work, but do they deal with patent issues? Buying the appropriate libraries and licenses is the path of least resistance, and this then causes issues when you try to open-source the whole thing.
It's not just codecs - can happen in any area of the project, and you suddenly find yourself with a whacking great hole - fun for geeks to fill, but the initial impression of a lacking whole will last with both reviewers and public, and casts a pall over the whole endeavour that it may never recover from.

Will the WebOS we see open-sourced really be something we could install on a blank TouchPad and use alongside a factory-shipped one without noticing any functional differences?

Because of this, I veer towards the "it'll die" camp. Or, at best, the "it'll survive in a tiny niche" camp.

I'd like WebOS to prove me wrong, and be usable from the moment it's released, but I'm not putting any money on it.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 12:16 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (7 responses)

> My concern with these announcements always is a pragmatic one: will the released source actually be useful?

Maybe. If there is something that can help the mobile Webkit-based browsers then it may be helpful.

WebOS is running headlong into the same problem that Chrome OS, and any other browser OS is going to face...

namely:

With browser-based OSes you can only do web apps. With a full OS like Android, Windows, or Linux Desktop-style system you can do everything that the Web-based OS can do... but you can also run native apps.

The hardware requirements needed for a 'web OS' is not going to be less then another system. The software stack needed to run it is not going to be substantially less. So it's going to always have a huge and significant problem.

----------------------

Personally I think that the Linux desktop folks, the ones that are not willing to jump ship for Android as far as Linux-based OSes are concerned for mobile devices, will be best served by just making a mobile suite of applications for handling phone calls and whatnot for Gnome and/or KDE.

Just give up on all the 'Meego' stuff and all the other 'Linux Mobile OS' attempts. It's just a waste of time and you'll never get anything out in a realistic time frame.

Just use all the same desktop components, but extended them/fix them to work better in mobile devices and have a 'phone mode' or something like that. Just go 'quick and dirty'. You will benefit much better by getting something that works, then something that works well or is competitive.

Make a extension for Gnome shell so you can have a full screen phone application. Something stupid like that.

Because all you'll ever get is running your software stack as a alternative firmware to Android on Android phones.

Right now, literally, you can get a Android phone for 50 dollars. If you can get Debian or FEdora running on a phone like that then that would provide all the leverage you need to launch your 'alternative' Linux mobile OS for other Linux goons to have fun with.

And it really would be fun.

In the future it's going to be mostly Web apps. The 'Web OS' folks have a point... Webkit will run just as well on Gnome as it does on Android.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 13:50 UTC (Tue) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link] (5 responses)

You have to read up on WebOS development. It support native apps just fine. It is just that the prefered type of development is _ONLY_LIKE_ web development (JS, HTML, CSS etc).

So at the end of the day it not like ChromeOS or B2G. It runs Qt, Enyo, Mojo etc _natively_.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 18:46 UTC (Tue) by alogghe (subscriber, #6661) [Link] (4 responses)

Could you provide some links to this? Your claims don't seem born out by my googling.

Enyo looks to be weaning people away from html/css? IE it want's you to work in higher level widgets with javascript as opposed to html/css.

X11 apps can display themselves with a shim X11 install but what connection to the rest of the environment do they have? Not dbus it seems? There seems to be no low level bindings for languages besides javascript?

Webos seems to be a self contained island of code that will take a great deal of work to be something that you could either install an enyo app into a linux desktop or use linux desktop apps reasonably within Webos.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 19:11 UTC (Tue) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link] (1 responses)

I didn't say that WebOS apps would be easy to integrate.

I just said that WebOS apps are not web apps. They might be very similar, but they run natively and WebOS runs OpenGL games etc. It is very different from ChromeOS or B2G. Not everything has to go through the browser.
https://developer.palm.com/content/resources/develop/over...
Qt
http://www.webosnation.com/qt-app-platform-and-running-pa...
Googling that wasn't that hard tbh btw.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 13, 2011 20:01 UTC (Tue) by alogghe (subscriber, #6661) [Link]

You're right googling for Qt and Webos specifically shows that up but, as was my point, there are many many libraries in the Linux world. All of those libraries would need the same porting.

Qt has always show great patience in doing that porting. That's a testament to those folks and their patience with porting their software to software islands like Webos.

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 14, 2011 8:00 UTC (Wed) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link] (1 responses)

Thanks to the WebOS Internals community project, WebOS devices are already running a wide variety of native Linux apps. Their Preware app installer provides convenient access to plenty of interesting stuff including openssh, openvpn, nginx, lighttpd, vim (hooray!), nano, xterm, and various custom kernels. That's in addition to all the normal mobile app thingies that are rather interesting to me (I think the only thing I've got from that category was an irc client).

http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:Preware

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 14, 2011 19:41 UTC (Wed) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

> That's in addition to all the normal mobile app thingies that are rather interesting to me

s/rather interesting to me/rather less interesting to me personally (although important for broader success)

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 16:29 UTC (Thu) by wookey (guest, #5501) [Link]

Personally I think that the Linux desktop folks, the ones that are not willing to jump ship for Android as far as Linux-based OSes are concerned for mobile devices, will be best served by just making a mobile suite of applications for handling phone calls and whatnot for Gnome and/or KDE.
There is already the freesmartphone stack. Which is in Debian and used in at least some Neo distributions. It seems fairly sensibly architected and does actually work, with apps/UI optimised for small phone screens. Is that the sort of thing you had in mind? The think I've found odd in all this (apart from Nokia screwing it up so spectacularly) is that no-one seems to be making stuff to run Android apps on a linux base. Naively it seems that this shouldn't be too hard: it's basically Java on Linux with some syscalls for power management changed about and different classes and erm, a few other things like strange paths. But it feels like a shim environment sjhouldn't be beyond the wit of man and suddenly being able to run thousands of 'apps' on your linux phone (as well as 'proper software') ought to be a really useful thing. Is there actually some reason why this is really difficult, or do just not many people care?

WebOS reborn? I hope!

Posted Dec 13, 2011 9:51 UTC (Tue) by petur (guest, #73362) [Link] (2 responses)

Using WebOS and Android side-by-side on my Touchpad, I have to say that the ease of use of WebOS is simply amazing, it beats Android hands down.

I do really hope somebody picks up where HP left it, makes it even better, and results in a community spawning more apps to do justice to this nice platform.

Funny that I got myself the Touchpad in order to run Android, and ended up staying with WebOS :) We'll see how ICS runs on it (when it arrives)

WebOS reborn? I hope!

Posted Dec 13, 2011 17:45 UTC (Tue) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (1 responses)

Thank you, I don't need to try Android then. For now I am happy with WebOS on Touchpad.

The only thing which bothers me is the PDF reader which is far less capable than okular.

WebOS reborn? I hope!

Posted Dec 13, 2011 20:08 UTC (Tue) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]

I would assume the Plasma Active guys will try to get Plasma Active, which should include okular/an okular-kpart based pdf reader, running on WebOS.

Alex

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 22:52 UTC (Thu) by maro (guest, #34315) [Link] (1 responses)

I just found a typo in an article by corbet. There's a first time for everything, I guess. :-)

"As has been been written here before"

WebOS reborn?

Posted Dec 15, 2011 22:55 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

There's no typo - "been" had obviously been written before :)

Fixed, thanks. (But, for the future, please email typo reports to us at the address written right above the comment box).


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