A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 16:06 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261)
In reply to: A Plumber's Wish List for Linux by liljencrantz
Parent article: A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

It's not licensing under GPLv2 that's anti-social, Samba also used to be licensed under GPLv2. It's licensing GPLv2-*ONLY* that's the anti-social part (and yes I've spoken to many Linux kernel developers about this).

The simple act of licensing GPLv2+ allows other projects that have moved to GPLv3 to re-use that code. It doesn't force the project that wants GPLv2 to move, it simply allows code reuse by other projects that have upgraded the license.

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A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 16:50 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (12 responses)

Releasing a work as GPLv2-or-later means effectively handing over control of the licence terms on the covered versions of the work to a third party in perpetuity; it's entirely reasonable to find that notion objectionable even if one regards the FSF as a trustworthy organization. Just because one happens to find the terms of GPLv2 suitable doesn't mean that one will find the terms of GPLv3 suitable.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 17:00 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (11 responses)

True, but forcing yourself to be "v2-only" isolates your project from the rest of the community. Now if that's what you want to do, then it's your choice, but it's not a social act, more a selfish one.

It also risks the continuance of your project if fatal flaws are found in your 'XX-only' license, as many believe to be the case with GPLv2. You might find your code used in ways you were specifically trying to avoid by your original choice of license.

Picking a 'XX-only' license is a touching faith in the bug-free nature of legal code. As programmers I would hope we were wiser than that.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 17:05 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (5 responses)

Choosing any GPL license isolates you from a large part of the community. I think describing it as anti-social is rather extreme.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 17:45 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (4 responses)

I'm sorry, I didn't define my terms correctly - that's my fault.

When I use the word community, I'm considering the GPL-code-writing community - that's the group I feel a part of. There are other communities, and a broader FLOSS community using different licenses, but they're not ones that I would chose so I don't feel as much a part of them.

Within that narrower definition (although it is 70% of all Free Software out there) then chosing an XX-only license is an anti-social act, as it prevents wider reuse within GPL projects, which IMHO is the purpose of that license.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 18:41 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (3 responses)

It's a community that's based on a large number of non-GPL components (plus one fairly significant GPLv2-only component). If you define "Community" in such a way that, say, X.org isn't part of the community, I think you're aligning yourself pretty differently to the majority of people contributing to free software development.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 21:20 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (2 responses)

Maybe so, but that's the community I feel the most affinity with (the GPL software producing community).

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 13, 2011 16:35 UTC (Thu) by bronson (guest, #4806) [Link]

'Antisocial' refers to society as a whole, not just the community you personally feel the most affinity with.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 16, 2011 18:01 UTC (Sun) by obi (guest, #5784) [Link]

As it's supposed to be a community, you could simply ask for this specific code to be released GPLv2+.

Or even better, understand their apprehensions about not automatically trusting all future GPL versions, and ask for this code to be released v2 + v3 only.

If people would ask me to release some of my code under an additional or more liberal license so it can be reused I doubt I'd deny them.

So just ask in a friendly way.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 19:58 UTC (Mon) by fperrin (subscriber, #61941) [Link]

It also risks the continuance of your project if fatal flaws are found in your 'XX-only' license, as many believe to be the case with GPLv2. You might find your code used in ways you were specifically trying to avoid by your original choice of license.

If a fatal flaw in GPLv2 allows Stallman to come to your house and kill your kittens, then a GPLv2+ licensing enables you to release future versions of your software under GPLv3 where you are protected; but previous versions of your software are still available under the GPLv2 and Stallman can still get an old version and come slaughter your kittens (if wants to; in the GPLv2+ scenario, the choice of the exact license is down to the user).

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 21:59 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

by the same logic, choosing GPLv3+ isolates your project from parts of the community and so is anti-social

face it, when the FSF created the GPLv3 they split the community between those who use GPLv2 and those who use GPLv3, there are some who allow both, but in those cases the code can only move one way to GPLv3+ projects.

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 10, 2011 23:33 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (2 responses)

Chosing GPL at all is in itself a statement that you approve of that license and the copyleft provisions within. That in and of itself is a fairly strong statement in support of the FSF who are the creators and maintainers of the license.

Saying "I support GPL and copyleft, but I don't trust the people that created it" strikes me as a bit silly (and anti-social). It's the FSF that are moving it forward to deal with modern threats such as DRM-locked down hardware and software patents that simply didn't exist with earlier versions.

Anyway, this is getting distracting from the fact that the Linux kernel doesn't have properly working POSIX AIO, and the real technical discussions I'd prefer to be having, so I'm going to leave my politics at this comment, and get back to complaining that the kernel doesn't give me the free pony that *I* want :-).

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 11, 2011 0:14 UTC (Tue) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

How is that silly? GPLv2 is out there, you can look it over and satisfy yourself that it does express what you want. GPLv3 doesn't, for a lot of copyleft advocates. And nobody can even hint at the changes GPLv4 might bring...

A Plumber's Wish List for Linux

Posted Oct 12, 2011 22:10 UTC (Wed) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

> Saying "I support GPL and copyleft, but I don't trust the people that created it" strikes me as a bit silly (and anti-social)

I disagree with you, but I'm pretty certain you're not Hitler. :-)

I think it's equivalent to "Love your country, but never trust its government". That v2, which you could see, and choose, suited you, and you weren't sure later versions would not, declining to take advantage of the "or later version" language seems perfectly sane to me.

And gimme back my initials; it's confusing? ;-)