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Fine-grain virtualization

Fine-grain virtualization

Posted Jul 23, 2011 22:59 UTC (Sat) by sthibaul (subscriber, #54477)
In reply to: Fine-grain virtualization by khim
Parent article: Signs of life from GNU Hurd

It seems like you just refuse to admit anything.

Making a point about "baah you need to run in KVM anyway" does not make sense.

*Obviously*, hardware support, right now, is a concern. But really it's a detail, and using it as an argument does not make sense. Yes, a big detail. but it's mostly about plugging existing drivers, is already being worked on, is already working for network boards, is now being integrated, and will probably continue with disks.

You have to start with something. Writing drivers doesn't provide any interesting to code on and talk about. Writing translators does. Writing both at the same time is really not reasonable. Throwing a model just because the implementation lacks some driver does not make sense.


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Why it does not make sense?

Posted Jul 24, 2011 9:12 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Making a point about "baah you need to run in KVM anyway" does not make sense.

Of course is does! Remember the context. You are trying to "sell" HURD to someone other then "developers who want to dig deeper into system development". This means they are not interested in the virtual possibilities. They want to use HURD here and now. And here and now KVM is just as much part of HURD development as it is part of Linux kernel development.

Yes, a big detail. But it's mostly about plugging existing drivers, is already being worked on, is already working for network boards, is now being integrated, and will probably continue with disks.

It's nice to know it's "already being worked on". When you'll finish it you'll need to fix the programs (because few developers will want to install HURD to do so), then you'll have a case for someone other then "developers who want to dig deeper into system development". Lot's of work - and looks like too few people to do it.

Throwing a model just because the implementation lacks some driver does not make sense.

Throwing model? Of course not. Throwing the implementation? This makes perfect sense.

I think HURD developers forget the main principle of IT: Good Enough (sometimes formulated as Worse is Better). Linux is used everywhere because it's
  1. Good enough.
  2. Cheap, familiar and well-known.
Note that "everywhere" means "everywhere where Windows is not used" (on servers Linux replaced UNIX not Windows). If you believe HURD should replace Linux (or any other OS) at some point you should explain what unique feature of HURD will push this switch and to do that you need to explain why anyone will care about said feature enough to ignore existing deficiencies.

Decide for yourself: do you want to push HURD as real OS (then it competes with FreeBSD, Linux, and Windows - and you need to concentrate on drivers and real applications) or do you want to push it as toy/learning OS (then it competes with Minix, Plan9 - you need to concentrate on documentation and learning courses).

HURD enthusiasts often looks as Esperanto enthusiasts: they preach the "bright future" where everyone will use HURD (or Esperanto) and positively refuse to talk about reality (which does not give you real reasons to believe said "bright future" will ever materialize).

Why it does not make sense?

Posted Jul 24, 2011 13:15 UTC (Sun) by civodul (subscriber, #58311) [Link]

Hey, funnily I happen to be an Esperanto enthusiast too! :-)

(BTW, sorry I wasn't clear in my initial comment: I didn't mean to say that GNU/Hurd is Ready for the Desktop, obviously, but rather that it's *designed* with user freedom in mind as opposed to being merely a toy for "developers who want to dig deeper into system development".)

Why it does not make sense?

Posted Jul 27, 2011 18:03 UTC (Wed) by kingdon (guest, #4526) [Link]

Mi vidas ke la esperanta vikipedio havas artikolon pri Hurd, ĉe http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurd

And since google translate doesn't (yet :-)) have esperanto: I see that the esperanto wikipedia has an article on Hurd, at http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurd

Why it does not make sense?

Posted Jul 24, 2011 16:39 UTC (Sun) by sthibaul (subscriber, #54477) [Link]

> You are trying to "sell" HURD to someone other then "developers who want to dig deeper into system development".

Ooops, no, as civodul explained, there's a misunderstanding here. We are not targeting end users yet. We target at providing more power to end users. And now that Debian GNU/Hurd is quite easy to install, we welcome developers who want to help in that direction.

Also, we don't really aim at replacing Linux. Linux is "good enough", indeed, and does it well. The Hurd simply wants to try to be yet better in some aspects, which we have already explained.


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