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Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 3, 2011 20:50 UTC (Tue) by spaetz (subscriber, #32870)
In reply to: Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition) by nevyn
Parent article: Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

> Might have been worth talking to some people here, rather than trying to work it out from ML postings ...

I found the original article well-written and interesting. It is clear that plenty has gone on behind the scenes. Given the emotional state of things, I wouldn't expect that asking some of the involved people gives you a more unbiased and clearer view of things.

By wording your argument as addressing "the most obvious "OMG, WTF" parts of this article" you have - at least in my case - lost any credibility when it comes to objective and sober reporting and I stopped reading. Which is a pity, because I think you might have been able to contribute interesting facts to the debate.


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Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 4:16 UTC (Wed) by nevyn (guest, #33129) [Link]

> I found the original article well-written and interesting.

I never said it wasn't. Indeed lots of articles on foxnews.com are well written and interesting, but they suffer from the same problem this one does. I don't pay LWN because of the great writing style, I pay them because they (usual) write what is correct and lead, instead of mislead.

> It is clear that plenty has gone on behind the scenes.

Except nothing _has_ gone on "behind the scenes". One rpm packager of one minor distro. decided to use a weird fork of rpm, bummer for them. I hope it doesn't fail too badly for their users.

> Given the emotional state of things, I wouldn't expect that asking some of the involved
> people gives you a more unbiased and clearer view of things

I didn't say LWN should have asked me, or prov/jbj/whoever ... just speak to _someone_. I'm pretty sure if LWN asked any of the Fedora project leaders "is there any question about rpm maintenance" then after they stopped laughing they would have been happy to educate.

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 11:02 UTC (Wed) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

It's a good thing that Floriant Festi did then, and bummed you out.. ;)

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 12:55 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

FWIW, it has always been my style to base things heavily on public writings. It's how our community works, and I don't want to pretend that I have some special sources of information that nobody else has.

This kind of story is always the hardest to write; I'd rather be out trying to understand dcache scalability. Often the only real way to judge success is when all sides seem to be thoroughly upset with me; by that standard, this article has certainly worked.

I don't think I ever said Fedora was likely to do a switch - I know the history there (or at least part of it).

Fox News. Ouch.

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 14:25 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Don't worry about the Fox News jab. Nevyn far outdid anything in the article with his "One rpm packager of one minor distro. decided to use a weird fork of rpm, bummer for them" statement. Makes me suspicious of the other things he says.

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 15:10 UTC (Wed) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

Corbet, no worries, your article was actually quite nicely written, just some specific inaccuracies and some background knowledge about the supposedly attempt of pushing rpm5 on Mageia (we *never* did such a thing, but rather offered to help them stay compatible and ensure API compatibility through wrappers etc. same way as we did the other way before rpm5 switch).

Anyways, your article generated a lot of positive and objective discussions with FUD even being dismissed from people such as Floriant Festi of Fedora, which gets a star in my book for his non-biased and straight honest response. :)

Mageia

Posted May 4, 2011 15:15 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

FWIW, the article said nothing about "pushing rpm5 on Mageia." I did say that there seems to be some tension there, which is different.

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 22:39 UTC (Wed) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

ahh, boklm proves yet again his moronic sense of in-your-face ignorance referring to posts in threads he obviously has no way of grasping..

First post he links to is a reply to several questions and requests regarding rpm5, where I did offer to aid them, yet I was *not* the one pushing the issue or even raising anything about rpm to begin with. Read the thread..

The second post is a response to bogus claims and reasoning, which I didn't really pursue arguing much. It only trailed off into a rant about the compatibility their rpm maintainer mentioned and desired, discussing various aspects of it, and reiterating more than once that I did *NOT* try to push rpm5, and I'd be more than happy to try work together independent of their rpm version.

People should rather read the mature and amazingly dumbshit responses I got, with the last one from boklm being the final for me to reply to, stating that his attitude and behaviour being so obvious that adding any further would be redundant..

Oh yes, boklm is Nicolas Vigier, the former mandriva employee which you'd never see being active on cooker mailing lists or community in general, not even being assigned to working on the distribution itself either. Now he's one of the most active people on the list, with continued trolling making us all embarassed and feeling awkward on his behalf and his complete lack of self-awareness...

Neat character, eh?

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 5, 2011 0:09 UTC (Thu) by boklm (guest, #34568) [Link]

> ahh, boklm proves yet again his moronic sense of in-your-face ignorance referring to posts in threads he obviously has no way of grasping..

Nice ! With proyvind, two links is enough to get a full page of insults ...

At least people can now read the thread to see how you *never* did push rpm5 on Mageia, and what kind of friendly discussions we can have with you.

Insults

Posted May 5, 2011 0:14 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I think it would be nice if we didn't have more insults here. Technical disagreements are fine, but, please, can we (all) refrain from personal attacks?

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 5, 2011 2:41 UTC (Thu) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

yeah, they can read just exactly that, and they can also continue reading the threads and see the lovely responses I received from people such as you.

The resposes to the second thread is so amazingly insulting, ignorant and silly that they speak loud and clear for themself.

Nice thing you like to demonstrate and share your own behaviour with the rest of the world without me barely having to lift my finger for it to happen.

Please

Posted May 5, 2011 2:54 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

So please, since you need not lift your fingers, stop lifting them now. Personal attacks don't help anybody, and I'd really rather see fewer of them on LWN.

Thanks.

Please

Posted May 5, 2011 5:24 UTC (Thu) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

Corbet, you are right, my provocation lied more in the reference to the second thread which was filled with nothing but unprovoked insults directed towards me though.

But I guess we can do without the symbiotic relationship between trolling and troll cannibalism.. ;)

Btw. sorry for my mixup with me claiming you writing me trying to push rpm5 on mageia, I was thinking of the more slanderous osnews article where I even also was blamed as the developer ticking Jeff off..

For what it's worth, your article did generate positive responses and mostly healthy discussions and exchange of information that was actually quite well received at fellows at Mandriva and in our community. :)

Given that you wrote the article watching from the side-line online, you actually showed a remarkable insight which no way in hell can be compared to Fox whatsoever.

Please

Posted May 7, 2011 10:16 UTC (Sat) by boklm (guest, #34568) [Link]

> Corbet, you are right, my provocation lied more in the reference to the second thread which was filled with nothing but unprovoked insults directed towards me though.

Since the beginning you've been a Mageia hater. We can see it with mails from you like this one at the beginning of the project :
http://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-discuss/20100930/0...

Now with rpm5.org shutdown without notice/rpm6 fork, you've tried to put the blame on "mageia dissident zealot troll" :
http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2011-05/msg00005.php

But thanks to the latest email from Jeff Johnson on cooker, we know more about the reasons for the rpm6 fork :
http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2011-05/msg00266.php

And it has nothing to do with Mageia, trolls, FUD or anything like that.

Please

Posted May 7, 2011 13:29 UTC (Sat) by proyvind (guest, #74683) [Link]

Heh, I think people reading my post will view it as quite sane, with questions asked and issued raised, which noone else did, despite they really should've been.

Some of the more sensible mageia project members, Michael Scherer, you'll find even sharing the same concerns and voicing some of the same scepticism, asking people not to attack me for asking such questions.

rpm5.org has not been shutdown and the mail forwarded to the cooker list was originally posted to engineering@, where it later was cleared up to be a misunderstanding, quoting from internal mail:

On May 7, 2011, at 7:09 AM, Denis Koryavov wrote:

> Hello Jeff and others!
>
> I think we have some misunderstanding here. Just let me to explain.
> I'm not a Mandriva manager - I work in ROSA Laboratory.
> In ROSA Laboratory we work on many projects (some of them even not based on Mandriva).
>

Yes I've misunderstood your role.

...

> P.S Since I'm not a good English speaker,
> please excuse me for my possible mistakes.
>

And I'm not a good Russian speaker.
You're excused: Never blame a dog for its master.

And anyone who thinks I resemble Britney Sphears likely uses Debian linux
(and reads osnews instead of p0rn).

73 de Jeff

------

So that's where thing actually lies on the map, so given that all your trolls and attempts at pronouncing rpm5.org dead and spreading FUD with articles of yours such as this: https://linuxfr.org/users/boklm/journaux/la-fin-de-rpm5 ,
I think it's time for you to give it a break, people are getting really tired and your motivation and agenda is so extremely transparent and unclever that it's hard to take you seriously even as a person, so for your own and to Mageia's advice, please don't harm your own and your projects credibility and image any further.

Majority of members involved in both Mandriva and Mageia has great interest in collaboration and communication, you've been actively undermining this from the start, if you have any care and respect for the community at full for any of the projects, please stop this crusade of yours immediately.

Please

Posted May 9, 2011 12:44 UTC (Mon) by boklm (guest, #34568) [Link]

> rpm5.org has not been shutdown

rpm5.org has been down for about a week (without any explanation), that's what I was talking about.

> the mail forwarded to the cooker list was originally posted to engineering@, where it later was cleared up to be a misunderstanding, quoting from internal mail:

It doesn't matter why jbj wasn't paid, if there is a valid reason or not, if there was a misunderstanding or not. I'm not talking about that. What I'm telling you is that the reason for shutting down rpm5.org website and announcing an rpm6 fork was a problem (or misunderstanding if you prefer) between Jeff and Mandriva. Which has nothing to do with Mageia, or me, or anyone trolling, contrary to what you've been saying. If there's anyone spreading FUD, it's you.

> Majority of members involved in both Mandriva and Mageia has great interest in collaboration and communication, you've been actively undermining this from the start, if you have any care and respect for the community at full for any of the projects, please stop this crusade of yours immediately.

I have not been undermining anything, I'm not against collaboration, I'm not on a crusade. And I did not announce the death of rpm5, the only thing I did was to ask a simple question about the status of rpm5.org [1] (which it seems interested a lot of people according to the answers in the thread). If Jeff decided to insult people, only give cryptic answers and create rpm6.org, I'm not responsible for this. And I have nothing to do with rpm5.org being shut down. So please stop spreading FUD on me, accusing me of various things, insulting me ...

[1]: http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2011-04/msg00473.php

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 4, 2011 18:52 UTC (Wed) by nevyn (guest, #33129) [Link]

> FWIW, it has always been my style to base things heavily on public
> writings. It's how our community works, and I don't want to pretend
> that I have some special sources of information that nobody else has.

And that might be fine for when everyone is working in "the same room", but not so much when a small number of people are off by themselves. While a bunch of the relevant people might be aware of the rpm5 and Mandrivia MLs, and the "discussions" ... it's not like it'd be a good idea to post to any of those lists.

Also anybody can speak to the FPL/etc, and/or the portion of Fedora/RHEL/SuSE developers who would have some insight.

> Often the only real way to judge success is when all sides seem to be
> thoroughly upset with me; by that standard, this article has certainly
> worked.

For that to be a good test "all sides" have to be wrong. For something like "What is the maintainership status of a core component for a couple of major distributions" that seems ... unlikely.

> I don't think I ever said Fedora was likely to do a switch - I know the
> history there (or at least part of it).

You didn't say it explicitly, but the implication was certainly that rpm5 was a viable replacement fork (like, say, EGCS vs. GCC).

If you reported someone had forked dpkg, then the important point isn't if "Linux Mint" is using it but if Debian/Ubuntu are ... IMO.

Who maintains RPM? (2011 edition)

Posted May 5, 2011 12:25 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Just FYI: With this answer you disqualified your previous comments. I cannot take them serious any more. Others see this similar. Maybe you did yourself and your goals -- that sound more like a crusade -- a bad service with your attitude?


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