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Modularity and Layering

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 2, 2011 15:07 UTC (Wed) by jonasj (guest, #44344)
In reply to: Modularity and Layering by theoldrang
Parent article: First look at Ubuntu "Natty" and the state of Unity

Your comment generally shows a lack of understanding about the concepts you describe, and I really don't say this to be rude in any way, but I think it would be more helpful if you don't try to explain these things until you understand them better yourself, because it confuses people more than it helps them. Specifically, I have to point out this which is completely wrong:

"To the 'core' of Ubuntu, they tie things, packages. They are getting rid of (for now) Gnome and replacing it with Unity (except for Edubuntu) Ubuntu Is now Gnome. (Kubuntu is Ubuntu built around KDE) Gnome, Unity and KDE are 'desktop' environments."

They are not getting rid of GNOME, they are getting rid of gnome-panel+metacity, which GNOME itself is getting rid of too. GNOME's replacement is gnome-shell, Ubuntu's replacement is Unity. Unity and gnome-shell are both graphical shells FOR the GNOME desktop and not complete desktop environments; if you removed GNOME from Ubuntu, you would not have a functioning desktop environment.


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Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 3, 2011 1:05 UTC (Thu) by theoldrang (guest, #71818) [Link]

Thank you for explaining what I don't know... I guess KDE, as you pointed out (and you just did) needs Gnome to function...

I had not thought so, but, you have corrected me.

(Gnome is getting rid of two buttons, by the way, and I am looking to dump it, too!)

Since, as you explained, I don't know much about what I said, I guess, that with Gnome and Unity and KDE all relying on Gnome to function, and Packages relying all, Ultimately on Gnome...

My, that sounds awful wrong...

I mean, KDE runs without Gnome,...

And, I believe Xfce, LXDE, ROX, Étoilé and EDE might also do without it....

My points was, and still is... those are choices (and several Ubuntu spinoffs have used at least three of those, that I know of, having tried them)...

Back to my point.

I may not know anything about what I speak... even when I had to load in binary instructions to get the computers I learned on to work, back when I started... (also used punch paper tape, TTY terminals and years before 200 baud modems...). I must be in your shadow for your theories... (I am not the 'most' enlightened one... but, I can see you are between first and second waiting for a pitch... and a pickle barrel)

What is wrong, with letting 'us' have options for what is loaded?

What I mentioned that Edubuntu is doing, allows for either Unity, or Gnome (their words) to be up, and packages opted for...

I guess that idea, that is being put into practice, is impossible... YOUR ideal not mine...and they must be blowing smoke... since that is not able to be done... according to you.

(I am stretching it a bit... but, 'reductio ad absurdum' seems proper... now)

I don't want Gimp... Well, Ubuntu took it out. I can still put it in... If I want.

I don't want gwibble in the first place... but they cram it at the whole distro (I am security conscious... and NONE of the Facebook, etc. social networks have any security worth a Windows OS security pack.)

Stéphane Graber is doing something like that with Edubuntu... and he is part of That Team...

Will you tell him he is wrong?

I thought he had a good idea... too bad you know it can not be done...

I will have to stay computer illiterate... I guess.

I am saying... (and you say is ridiculously impossible and ignorant on my part) That I would like to be able select to install or not install most packages, before the the system starts to load.

That would reduce much, I know how to load missing and NEEDED drivers... but, is only a pipe dream...

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 5, 2011 12:52 UTC (Sat) by jonasj (guest, #44344) [Link]

guess KDE, as you pointed out (and you just did) needs Gnome to function...
No, KDE does not need GNOME to function. That's not what I said. KDE and GNOME are two separate desktop environments. I said Ubuntu is not removing GNOME, they are only removing GNOME's window manager and panel, and replacing those parts of GNOME with Unity.

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 5, 2011 17:42 UTC (Sat) by theoldrang (guest, #71818) [Link]

"if you removed GNOME from Ubuntu, you would not have a functioning desktop environment."

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 5, 2011 19:18 UTC (Sat) by theoldrang (guest, #71818) [Link]

Now, getting off your 'that is not what I said'...

I will ignore both your statement and denial...

And have you probably not listen to what I said...

I would like the Ubuntu system I install, have more of what I want, and less of what they tell me I want.

1) I don't care if they use Gnome, Gnome 3.0, Unity, KDE, etc., etc., etc.

2) I have taken 'gnome' out of Ubuntu and installed other desktops and lost nothing I had installed... And I am not whizz banger saying it can not be done. In your opinion, I am not learned enough to know it can not be done (I am so stupid on that point, I have done it several times)

3) Your arguments and other points about what can and can't be, mean nothing to what I am trying to say. NOTHING...(and as stupid and ignorant as I am, I keep thinking you REALLY know little about computers... read about 'cookies' later on)

Ubuntu does not need an EMAIL system... But, It has one, tightly integrated to the system, and TOTAL REMOVAL over the last versions, including 10.10... causes problems. I am an odd kind of tinkerer and have blown up the system many times, learning some things, that tell me other things will stay, at least partially, in Ubuntu (hence, I have learned 'needed' things and things you can not fix... or, rather, better not, because other things will break).

Why can't they be taken out? I don't know. That was decide by the builders of the system and That, now is how it is. But, there is no other reason to have an email system, other than people want one, and they have the one they want you to have. (and its close integration to the full system.)

I say (email integration aside) There are many other packages that could be our choice. You say that is impossible. It can't be... I use a different email system an have removed "MOST" of theirs, except that which is tightly integrated into the system...

I can also install many other packages, and remove many packages...

And I would like to have it so that at the FULL INSTALL of the system, I get what more closely approximates what I end up with, by allowing me to make those choices at install... Which you say is impossible, because you have to have gnome?

You jump up and down, telling me how nothing can be done, because Ubuntu uses Gnome, all you want.

I say, the option to install (from... get ready... Packages that are already on hand to download, from sources UBUNTU HAS available ONLINE, can be selected by choices made at the time of install, when all dependencies can be selected and downloaded at the same time (they have a package that does the dependencies checks, by the way) and, the install may take a little longer (or not),

OH.. I forgot... Impossible because Ubuntu has to use Gnome... (no it doesn't, But to that point, there is no meaning in what I would like to see...to you, that is)

What I will see, in Ubuntu 11.04, are more things that I don't want to see, and some, I don't want to live through...

With the possible exception of Edubuntu, but... I am still going to have to spend hours putting in what I want (have not used it recently, so I don't know if there is a bunch I will take out... or, even IF I would keep it.

I do know I am not going back to Windows...

So, RANT all you want about Gnome and Ubuntu... Ignore what I have tried to say, and go in peace...

Unity Ubuntu and Gnome are coming to a divergence, at the rate they are going.

Hopefully, they will handle it better that the last little discussion they had, with Banshee...

I remember a discussion I had, many years ago, with 'Authorities of Great Knowledge and Authority' in the Computer Industry. Their point was that Cookies are Harmless... I told them they were going to be a major problem.

Like you and your irrelevant discussions on Gnome, ignored one tenet of computers... If the 'data' is there, there is nothing I can not do to it... And if you are not careful, it can do things back.

Well, believe it or not... Cookies are dangerous. Once in your system, things can be done with them unless precautions are taken, where-by grievous harm can be done to your software, data, and indeed your hardware.

Well, what I am saying is moot. Now...

What I proposed, was, to my thinking, an interesting, and possible idea...

But, you know better, and you insist that all I spoke about was gnome, and you have seen no further. (the gnome was a gloss-over... irrelevant to my point. My point being I was not wanting the plus-imperfect Unity.) PS: Many that think they know, and have been writing articles about Computers, and Linux and Debian and Ubuntu, and even 'Gnome' and getting paid for it (which I am not), have essentially stated Unity is not a fully to term project, and see many growing pains, past the date of release, and there are things they don't like. I am not the only one thinking of not going to 11.04, blindly or slavishly.

I want what I have, in my computer, to be mine. To be what I want, and think, for my purposes, what I need. It is not what they insist I really need, I would like to see it more my way, at install, without having to spend hours fixing everything that they did which was wrong, and also adding what I want... and less about someone 'much more knowledgeable than I, telling me that is impossible because you have to have gnome!! (no matter how irrelevant to the issue, that statement might be)

For example... I was told I have to have Windows... Guess What...

(But, had they not set up Ubuntu the way they did, Look at all the fun I would have missed, tinkering and futzing around... .that is the fun part, really... no matter how many bad words my daughter says I use)

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 6, 2011 5:15 UTC (Sun) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

there are many distros that give you detailed control over everything that's installed in the system.

Ubuntu is not aiming at people like you (and me) who want this control.

they are aiming at people who want a desktop that 'just works' and who don't care how or why it works. As a result they choose to install things that you and I don't want on the system.

now, if I care enough, I can still go in under the covers and rip things out (it's pretty much Debian under the covers, so if you try hard enough to ignore the defaults, you can do anything with it that you can do with Debian)

there is a place for Ubuntu, and there are places that Ubuntu should not be used.

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 6, 2011 22:21 UTC (Sun) by theoldrang (guest, #71818) [Link]

Looking at some of the really basic systems, that are running Ubuntu (highly stripped) and tailored to their 'really basic systems,' and with the approval of Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth, I would almost venture to say that there is a place for not only those that want control (sinners such as we) or those that need control (hardware developers and other grievous sinners such as they... had to carry the sinning thing along), but, what I am proposing, is not that far out of possible (e.g. two different install iso's... one for newbie saints... and one for the Al Yankovich types (weird, wired and sinners)... Call one, "Welcome to the heaven of Ubuntu"... and the other "HELL-o"\|/"o. One would have the standard distro... and the other warning labels asking for your adult supervision signatory.

But, the other would contain what is needed (let's call it the 'Happy Valley' Ubuntu) and, a wild west drinking town of other options (use at your own risk and Mr. Shuttleworth will laugh his bum off at any support requests...) "No More Warnings" Ubuntu.

You say it can't, I still say it can.

I would just like to do it without having to clean up such a mess, before I make my own.

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 6, 2011 23:37 UTC (Sun) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

You may be interested in the Minimal CD: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 7, 2011 0:23 UTC (Mon) by theoldrang (guest, #71818) [Link]

As they say in the South of France...

Domo Arigato, Signor!!

(Now to learn text install....sigh...)

Modularity and Layering

Posted Mar 24, 2011 11:41 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

Have you tried using Debian instead? Your comments suggest that you'd find that a more satisfactory distro.


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