It's going to take more than voting [LWN.net]

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 0:47 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455)
In reply to: It's going to take more than voting by kleptog
Parent article: Moglen on Freedom Box and making a free net

> There is nothing preventing you from picking up your belongings and moving to some other country more to your liking.

Hmm, some people would like to live by their own rules on their land. If the country doesn't like it, why doesn't the country pick up and move to land it actually owns (and did not steal from someone else) or where the country is more to people's liking?

If a person (instead of a group of people) were doing the bullying, would your first suggestion be that the victim pick up and leave? I would think that maybe you would feel for them and try to change the situation for them? Maybe you would deride the bully and even stand up for the victim? It sounds like you believe people should be happy with being bullied and never wish for a better environment, and if they do, that they are ungrateful.

> Governments by and large are accepted by people because they solve actual problems.

That is one possibility, I can think of many other possibilities. Perhaps it is habit, perhaps it is lack of imagination, perhaps it is acceptance of the status quo. Perhaps they are not accepted but are simply too strong to beat. Perhaps it is like evolution, survival of the fittest, the strong just get stronger and dominate the weak. I think both of us are just guessing.

> Infrastructure simply doesn't get built out of the goodness of people hearts.

Ironic that you should feel that way on a site for free software. :)

Surely, there are more than 2 ways of this being accomplished, no?
a) goodness of heart
b) theft
c)...

> Taxation is actually an extremely efficient way of paying for the million and one things the government does.

Yes, theft if very efficient. Hardly ethical though.

Not to mention that a large portion of those million and one things includes many things I wish they never did... fighting wars, enforcing horrible laws: copyright and patents..., creating/upholding monopolies, imprisoning people unjustly, supporting foreign dictators, being the largest polluters... I suspect that you would disapprove of some of them too.

Sadly many of those things tend to be the most expensive too. Eliminate them and perhaps one of the many less efficient ways than theft could fund the remaining ones we care about?

> ISTM the corporations are screwing you over far harder than the government ever will.

Funny, I can't think of anything else put together, corporations, sleezy salesmen, thieves, foreign dictators... that steal 30% of my income yearly.

Lots of people are evil, yes. But your claim is bold. What is your rationale? What is your evidence for this claim?

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It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 8:32 UTC (Thu) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (2 responses)

Hmm, some people would like to live by their own rules on their land. If the country doesn't like it, why doesn't the country pick up and move to land it actually owns (and did not steal from someone else) or where the country is more to people's liking?

Your problem here is that you're seeing the country separately from the people living in it. It's not, you can't move a country without moving the people in it. So the choice becomes you moving or everybody else (who have just as many rights as you) moving. The choice seems pretty clear, don't you think?

Infrastructure simply doesn't get built out of the goodness of people hearts.
Ironic that you should feel that way on a site for free software. :)

The total value of all free software is peanuts compared to other infrastructure. For example: Total estimated value of software in Debian: $1.8B, Total cost of US highway system $425B. Which is but a tiny portion of the costs of all the infrastructure in America. Building software is also a somewhat different proposition to building roads.

Taxation is actually an extremely efficient way of paying for the million and one things the government does.
Yes, theft if [sic] very efficient. Hardly ethical though.

I'll think we'll have to disagree on that. Theft implies you get nothing in return, which is clearly not the case. Also, I said efficient. If you were sent an individual bill for every service the government provided, you'd spend your entire day paying them (or not) rather than doing any work. The only people happy would be the mailmen and the people visiting about unpaid bills. When you're talking about a system of hundreds of millions of people efficiency becomes extremely important.

Not to mention that a large portion of those million and one things includes many things I wish they never did... fighting wars, enforcing horrible laws: copyright and patents..., creating/upholding monopolies, imprisoning people unjustly, supporting foreign dictators, being the largest polluters... I suspect that you would disapprove of some of them too.

That, however, is a particularly American problem. That the US government is fairly broken is well known. It doesn't appear anyone is doing anything about it though. I just disagree that what you're proposing is the only alternative. There are plenty of governments that function better. There are none (AFAIK) that function like you appear to want it too, which indicates to me it's not practical in some way.

ISTM the corporations are screwing you over far harder than the government ever will.
Funny, I can't think of anything else put together, corporations, sleezy salesmen, thieves, foreign dictators... that steal 30% of my income yearly.

That 30% was agreed upon by your elected representatives. Clearly people think its important. (Also, given the budget deficit it doesn't appear to be enough).

The other 70% of your income is being spent on other stuff. Paying tax is just money, which you barely miss. Other than that, you barely interact with the government on a day-to-day basis. Businesses can screw you on a day to day basis. Overpriced crappy broadband. Providing loans to people they know they cannot pay. While a government in theory could screw you over, they're far to busy doing other things. There are more important things in the world than money.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 17:55 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Your problem here is that you're seeing the country separately from the people living in it.

Actually, in this case "the country" refers to the government, not the people living under its thumb. The people can stay; *they* aren't the ones acting aggressively. If the government stops violating others' natural rights, i.e. effectively stops being a government at all, it is welcome to stay as well.

> So the choice becomes you moving or everybody else (who have just as many rights as you) moving.

False dichotomy. No one needs to move. All that is required is that everyone respect their neighbors' natural rights.

> Theft implies you get nothing in return, which is clearly not the case.

False. Theft is when someone deprives you of your property without your permission. It makes no difference whether they leave something in return--something, moreover, which you clearly value less than what was taken, since they resorted to theft rather than a mutually-voluntary exchange.

> That, however, is a particularly American problem. That the US government is fairly broken is well known.

The problems listed are common to all governments, not just the USA. Aggression and corruption are in their nature. Without aggression they wouldn't *be* governments, and the power to get away with "legitimate" aggression invites corruption on a grand scale. Some are certainly less corrupt or intrusive than others, but that isn't much to boast about.

> There are plenty of governments that function better. There are none (AFAIK) that function like you appear to want it too, which indicates to me it's not practical in some way.

It's more than impractical; it would be a contradiction. An organization which respected others' natural rights and did not practice aggression could not reasonably be called a government at all. It is the institution itself which is flawed, not any particular implementation.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 18:33 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

> So the choice becomes you moving or everybody else (who have just as many rights as you) moving.

No, they do not have any rights over any land they don't own. Any claim that they do is illegitimate. A country is an abstract thing, it can move anytime the people controlling it want it to. And it does, it's usually called invasion or annexing. But, of course, it could move the other way too, but I forgive you for overlooking that since there is very little precedent in history for it. At any point, it could agree to stop exerting force over any place that it currently does. I am not asking anyone else to move (that is your suggestion), I am asking the country to move, to stop exerting force over any land which is owned by someone else.

>>> Infrastructure simply doesn't get built out of the goodness of people hearts.

>> Ironic that you should feel that way on a site for free software. :)

> The total value of all free software is peanuts compared to other infrastructure. For example: Total estimated value of software in Debian: $1.8B.

$1.8B? The linux kernel itself is likely worth close to that.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/24/linux_kernel_rand...

> I'll think we'll have to disagree on that. Theft implies you get nothing in return, which is clearly not the case.

From websters, theft:

"a: the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property"

Do you think that someone should be able to break into your house and take what they want? Do you think that if they decided to leave something behind as compensation, without agreeing with you what it is, that it would suddenly make it not theft?

> If you were sent an individual bill for every service the government provided, you'd spend your entire day paying them (or not) rather than doing any work.

I never was suggesting sending a bill for services that people did not request, you are. Being asked to pay for services you didn't request is called extortion, it is what the mafia does.

>> ...list of evil government undertakings...
> That, however, is a particularly American problem. That the US government is fairly broken is well known.

Say what? Everything that I mention is/was done by almost every nation's government in the world. Of course, it is broken, but it by no means is an American problem. Every organization which rules people by force is "broken".

> That 30% was agreed upon by your elected representatives.

Who the hell cares, I didn't agree to it. If the mafia bosses agree to extort you, does it make it OK? Under what weird (but obviously common logic) does an act become ethical simply because others agreed to it?

> The other 70% of your income is being spent on other stuff. Paying tax is just money, which you barely miss.

Believe me, I miss it. Your condoning of theft is abhorrent.

Not to mention that the simple 30% number was the real obvious IRS tax, but that every other bit of that 70% is likely taxed 10-100 times before I get any products out of it.

> Other than that, you barely interact with the government on a day-to-day basis.

Again, just because the mafia has such a tight control over the neighborhood, that people don't have to deal with them much (only when they pickup their extortion checks, or when they tell people to stay out of certain businesses) doesn't mean they aren't screwing people constantly. Just because most people learn to live with the problem and ignore it (they are sane, they realize it is not going away soon) doesn't mean it isn't there.

I suspect that people tend to get most angry at the problems they know that they could have avoided if they really cared. The bad deals you talk about below, that they could have been smarter about and simply not taken. On the other hand, the bad deals which they have lived under since birth, they are harder to acknowledge. Doing so is painful, and would likely lead to the realization that they might have to deal with them forever, and yet they did nothing to choose them.

> Businesses can screw you on a day to day basis. Overpriced crappy broadband. Providing loans to people they know they cannot pay.

No, sorry those are simply bad deals. People can choose to avoid them. Those are not criminal activities. The ones which are, of course, are the ones which are mandated by government, the ones people cannot avoid.

But, if you do the math and pretend that 30% is all I ever pay in taxes. For all the rest of the lot who get my 70%, to screw me over more than the government, they would have to screw me of more than %30 of my income, that would mean 30 out of 70, that's 42%. I can guarantee you that I do not pay more 42% than I am willing to on everything that I pay for, I am simply too cheap. Oh, believe me, there are plenty of people willing to take my money if I am not thrifty. It's just that I am not in a habit of entering voluntarily into horrible deals, but the government takes it, involuntarily, even when I am thrifty.

> While a government in theory could screw you over, they're far to busy doing other things. There are more important things in the world than money.

Of course, there are more important things than money. I listed plenty of very important evil, non monetary crimes, and governments have a pretty good monopoly on those violent/extortive things in most parts of the world. The list of things that corporations can do to screw me over, is almost purely financial. To go beyond the financial, they usually have to enlist the help (and protection) of a government.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 18:40 UTC (Thu) by jthill (subscriber, #56558) [Link] (7 responses)

and did not steal from someone else

Please find a piece of land not stolen from someone else. That would include your own.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 18:59 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (6 responses)

> Please find a piece of land not stolen from someone else. That would include your own.

Of course, most land has been stolen form someone at some point. But, what is your point? That it is therefore OK to steal land at any point?

The relevant question, is, did the organization called a government legally purchase the land they are ruling over, with funds that they legally owned? Please find such land! Very little government ruled land was purchased legally, and the little that was, was likely purchased with stolen funds. That makes most land rightfully someone else's, certainly not rightfully owned by the government.

I purchased my land, and when I did, a land title search was done. At least some effort was made to say that the person I purchased it from legally owned it when I purchased it. As far back as is traceable, no one else has a claim to the land. This is normal, most people have to do this. Why can a government land on a continent and proclaim that they own all the land that they see (and can't see), while all the while it is obviously inhabited? Why, when land is purchased and sold on a daily basis from individual to individual, does some external agency still claim rights to this land? This is absurd logic, does the queen of England still own everyone in England?

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 20:29 UTC (Thu) by jthill (subscriber, #56558) [Link] (5 responses)

I purchased my land, and when I did, a land title search was done

That title search was done in government records, tracing back to the original grantor, the government, which keeps the records. You know all this.

The relevant question, is, did the organization called a government legally purchase the land they are ruling over, with funds that they legally owned

Good question.

But, what is your point?

That you're living on stolen land, and you were aware it was stolen when you purchased it. That you're claiming title granted by the organization you name as the thief.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 21:19 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (4 responses)

> That title search was done in government records, tracing back to the original grantor, the government, which keeps the records.

Who happens to be the entity keeping the registry of the land titles, has little relevance on ownership, as long as it was a trusted record keeping place. Most of the time land title's are registered at town halls, local places where people went to register local homesteaded or purchased land (not be granted land).

But, I think that you are confused. In the US, most land was likely homesteaded, not granted. Some of it was homesteaded before the government laid claim to it, some of it before the gov. existed. Either way most of it was not owned by any government to "grant". A grant is a gift, and was sometimes done, such as when the R&R companies were granted land for building the cross continental rail. But this is the exception not the rule. Either way, the land would no longer be owned by the gov. and likely any previous ownership of it would be hard to backup. Land which cannot be traced to a legitimate owner (even after theft) falls under the same terms as abandoned land and can naturally be re-homesteaded legitimately.

> That you're living on stolen land, and you were aware it was stolen when you purchased it.

When the record of ownership dies, so does the claim. Unless another record can be proven beyond it, at which point the land will gladly be given to them, that is after all why I paid for title insurance. But, baring that point, that last known owner was the most legitimate owner (not the gov.). And since then, it certainly has been sold many times. And none of those sales magically give the gov. ownership of it. I am not claiming that this stuff is clear after 100+years, but there is a fairly good chance that I am currently the most legitimately known owner of this land.

So, to claim that "I am living on stolen land" is disingenuous. I am living on land that was "likely once stolen, but that has since then likely been legitimately acquired". Those are two very different statements.

All this said, there is no evidence that this land should even remotely be considered owned by the U.S. gov.

> That you're claiming title granted by the organization you name as the thief.

Again, it was likely not granted to the last traceable owner, it was likely simply registered to that owner in a related organization's records. There is a big difference.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 21:42 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

it;s only the government that you claim is a thief that has defined 'legitimately acquired'

this same government is the organisation that defined 'legal' homesteading

so all your claims to legitimacy all boil down to 'the government says this is legitimate'

this is undermined by your claim that the government is not legitimate

Off-topic

Posted Feb 10, 2011 21:44 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

If the truth be known, I'm as interested in libertarian politics as anybody. But this discussion has gone rather off-topic for LWN, and there are plenty of other places where these issues can be talked about. Perhaps any further discussion could be moved somewhere else?

Thanks.

Off-topic

Posted Feb 17, 2011 18:54 UTC (Thu) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

To address the technological issues, we need to know context such as what it is we are trying to solve. There is quite a difference between virtually no central government where everyone must defend what they call "theirs" than if we have some sort of democratic collective body with very large military controls, and where the latter may be hostile to large groups of individuals to varying degrees.

As imitev's comments suggest (in a higher up subthread), we might face a much more tractable problem if we can focus situations where the dominant force is only likely to get very aggressive against the people it "serves" when it is a governmental unit of force small in relative size to the overall global community.

It's going to take more than voting

Posted Feb 10, 2011 21:52 UTC (Thu) by jthill (subscriber, #56558) [Link]

Who happens to be the entity keeping the registry of the land titles, has little relevance on ownership, as long as it was a trusted record keeping place

Please name some organization everyone in the area trusts regardless of who they work for or who they married or where or whether they worship, that isn't their government. If they didn't have such an organization, they'd have to invent one.

most land was likely homesteaded

as in, the government decided to grant them title based on them living on land that had somehow been cleared of competing claimants?

When the record of ownership dies, so does the claim

So we agree, then: ownership isn't some ineffable aura, not some magical bond between owner and owned, then, but just a matter of agreed rules and record keeping. And some handy pals to call on when thieves try to break those rules, of course. See paragraph (1) above.