User: Password:
|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

Posted Sep 22, 2010 21:27 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
In reply to: A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian by cjwatson
Parent article: A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

I don't really think so. CUT is not going to be radically different than the current testing.

Debian Stable rapidly becomes woefully obsolete - it's usually about 3-4 years old. New hardware is not supported, new versions of infrastructure software (Python, Ruby, Java, etc.) are not supported and so on.

It's nice to run it on servers, but I'm not able to use it even on locked-down business desktops!

My favorite idea is splitting Debian into "Debian Core" and "Debian Universe". "Debian Core" will have fairly rapid release cycle (yearly, perhaps) and will include only core infrastructure software (kernel, X, Python, gcc). And "Debian Universe" will contain everything else.

Kinda like Ubuntu's model of Multiverse or Arch's AURs.


(Log in to post comments)

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 22, 2010 21:50 UTC (Wed) by dbruce (guest, #57948) [Link]

"Debian Stable rapidly becomes woefully obsolete - it's usually about 3-4 years old."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Release_history

No, it has never been more than 3 years old. The only time it was ever over two years old was between July 2004 and June 2005 (due to the infamously-delayed Sarge release). Until 2002, Debian released a stable distro every year. Since Sarge, it has been just under two years between releases.

So in recent years, Stable has always been between zero and two years old, with the mean age being about a year.

DSB

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:09 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

"No, it has never been more than 3 years old."

You're forgetting the time spent in pre-release freeze. For example, Lenny has Linux 2.6.26 which was released on 13 Jul 2008. So it's already 2 years old and is going to be about 3 years when Squeeze is going to be released.

Python 2.5.2 (in Lenny) was released on Feb 18 2008 - already more than 2.5 year old.

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 23, 2010 12:42 UTC (Thu) by dbruce (guest, #57948) [Link]

Good points - the stabilization process seems to add an awful lot of time.

DSB

Exaggeration

Posted Oct 5, 2010 13:19 UTC (Tue) by dererk (subscriber, #67491) [Link]

You are mixing a lot of real facts, but using them as your own purpose.

That is, following your understanding, Red Hat Enterprise Linux offers a 4 years old distribution (because they distribute 2.6.18 kernel which was realized 14th Oct 2006), or, in the same way, it's 6 years old, because it includes python 2.4 released on 2004...

It's a stable software, in software engineer that would basically mean it has been proven to work in most testing scenarios, unfortunately for some cases, *that time* is too much.

I really think CUT would be a solution for them. Once again, thanks JoeyHess the great tools you invent and code (altogether with etckeeper, debconf itself, and so on!)!

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:20 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

Well, it depends on how you count. For example, Debian Squeeze is not yet released. But it's going to be way outdated at release time, if you take some specific high-profile examples:
- Python 2.6 (not 2.7, released Jul 3)
- Linux 2.6.32 (not 2.6.33-2.6.35, 2.6.33 released Feb 24)
- GCC 4.4 (not 4.5, released Apr 15)
- Firefox 3.5 (not 3.6, released Jan 21)
- Thunderbird 3.0 (not 3.1, released Jun 24)

So, by your measures, Squeeze is not yet 0 years old, but if you measure by firefox version included, it's already 8 months out of date and it hasn't even been released yet.

I don't have a major problem with that; I use Debian on all my machines -- stable (lenny) on most of them. And basically the only software I've upgraded on those is emacs23 and linux 2.6.32.

But it does seem somewhat of a shame that it takes so long to stabilize things and get a release ready after starting to freeze packages, that much of the software is 6+ months out of date at the day of release. Maybe CUT will help with that.

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 23, 2010 15:04 UTC (Thu) by juliank (subscriber, #45896) [Link]

> Well, it depends on how you count. For example, Debian Squeeze is not yet
> released. But it's going to be way outdated at release time, if you take
> some specific high-profile examples:
> - Python 2.6 (not 2.7, released Jul 3)
Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10.

> - Linux 2.6.32 (not 2.6.33-2.6.35, 2.6.33 released Feb 24)
Well, 2.6.32 will be maintained longer than 2.6.33, 2.6.34, or 2.6.35; and makes much more sense for a Debian release.

> - GCC 4.4 (not 4.5, released Apr 15)
Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10; moving to a new GCC version is usually a bit complicated.

> - Firefox 3.5 (not 3.6, released Jan 21)
> - Thunderbird 3.0 (not 3.1, released Jun 24)
Mozilla stuff is generally a problem, as far as I know.

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 26, 2010 14:15 UTC (Sun) by pgquiles (guest, #70318) [Link]

>> - Python 2.6 (not 2.7, released Jul 3)
>Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10.

Ubuntu 10.10 already has Python 2.7

http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=python2.7

>> - GCC 4.4 (not 4.5, released Apr 15)
>Same for Ubuntu 10.04 and Ubuntu 10.10; moving to a new GCC version is >usually a bit complicated.

Ubuntu 10.10 already has gcc 4.5

http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=gcc-4.5

If Ubuntu can develop something quite stable with 6-month release cycles and 2-month stabilization cycles, why can't Debian try it? (openSuse has 9-month release cycle and also works well for them)

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 26, 2010 14:34 UTC (Sun) by juliank (subscriber, #45896) [Link]

> Ubuntu 10.10 already has Python 2.7
But it's not the default and not supported, so practically useless.

> Ubuntu 10.10 already has gcc 4.5
It's not the default, so it does not matter.

Debian has those packages as well, in experimental. In Ubuntu, there is no thing such as experimental, so it needs to be in maverick in order to be in Ubuntu.

Exaggeration

Posted Sep 30, 2010 17:49 UTC (Thu) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

But it's going to be way outdated at release time, if you take some specific high-profile examples:
- Python 2.6 (not 2.7, released Jul 3)

I suppose using something like Python 2.5 (as I do on the semi-supported Kubuntu 8.04 release) occasionally results in brushing up against code written needlessly against Python 2.6-or-later features, but quite a lot of that can be fixed quite quickly, especially if that code is limited to people doing stupid things with setuptools instead of just providing sane distutils stuff in their setup scripts.

Really, Python 2.6 is the launchpad release for people jumping to 3.x, with 2.7 being the successor in that regard, plus extra gravy.

Your other examples are somewhat better, however, although there's almost always a case to be made for holding back on the newer stuff, especially if adopting such stuff means several laps of the track for those having to integrate and test it with everything else.

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

Posted Sep 22, 2010 22:22 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

> New hardware is not supported

Actually that's not true. The stable kernel updates *do* include new hardware support, where it's possible to backport in a reasonable way. For example, the onboard ethernet card in my desktop (running lenny) wasn't supported in the original kernel, but is now.

For etch (the one before lenny), they even released a new upstream kernel partway through the stable cycle which could be optionally installed.

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

Posted Sep 23, 2010 8:03 UTC (Thu) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

Two month ago, I tried to install Squeeze on a new laptop. Neither the ethernet nor the wifi were supported, and that can make a netinstall very hard to do.
Both were supported in 2.6.33 but were not yet added to 2.6.32.

Anyway, I always update to unstable right after the end of testing install (read minutes after). Testing is outdated as soon as it freezes (sometimes even before).

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

Posted Sep 23, 2010 15:00 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

> Two month ago, I tried to install Squeeze on a new laptop. Neither the ethernet nor the wifi were supported, and that can make a netinstall very hard to do.
> Both were supported in 2.6.33 but were not yet added to 2.6.32.

If you submit a bugreport, it might get added.

A constantly usable testing distribution for Debian

Posted Sep 23, 2010 7:00 UTC (Thu) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322) [Link]

I didn't say that you would be able to use CUT everywhere you can use stable; that was not my point. My point was that the *process* of preparing regular CUTs would help us with releasing stable in a more timely fashion.


Copyright © 2017, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds