|
|
Log in / Subscribe / Register

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Mark Shuttleworth responds to critiques of Canonical's (and Ubuntu's) contributions to free software. "When Ubuntu was conceived, the Linux ecosystem was in a sense fully formed. We had a kernel. We had GNOME and KDE. We had X and libc and GCC and all the other familiar tools. Sure they had bugs and they had shortcomings and they had roadmaps to address them. But there was something missing: sometimes it got articulated as "marketing", sometimes as "end-user focus". I remember thinking "that's what I could bring". So Ubuntu, and Canonical, have quite explicitly NOT put effort into things which are obviously working quite well, instead, we've tried to focus on new ideas and new tools and new components. I see that as an invigorating contribution to the broader open source ecosystem, and I hear from many people that they perceive it the same way. Those who say "but Canonical doesn't do X" may be right, but that misses all the things we do, which weren't on the map beforehand. Of course, there's little that we do exclusively, and little that we do that others couldn't if they made that their mission, but I think the passion of the Ubuntu community, and the enthusiasm of its users, reflects the fact that there is something definitively new and distinctive about the project. That's something to celebrate, something to be proud of, and something to motivate us to continue."

to post comments

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 21:24 UTC (Tue) by richo123 (guest, #24309) [Link] (38 responses)

Classic Shuttleworth here: A convincing plausible argument containing a hidden flaw.

I have been busily reporting kernel bugs on Launchpad for several years and the developers basically repeat the Shuttleworth mantra repeated here: We don't do kernel development/bug fixing. The real problem with that mentality is that many kernel bugs drastically affect end-user experience. The nature of the linux kernel is that it has many similarities to a kitchen sink so it covers a wide range of important functions directly affecting the end-user.

So for Shuttleworth to shrug his shoulders and claim "we don't so such technical things" and simply focus on the end-user is rather glib and unconvincing. Sure linux has an upstream structure and it is often unwise and inefficient as a distributor to ignore this reality but in the end if you are not pulling your weight in kernel land you are letting end-users down.

Many Ubuntu users complain about the buggy experience which goes directly against the initial philosophy of Ubuntu. Superficial spiels like Shuttleworth's in this article do nothing to resolve this basic problem.

Might I suggest that more of a focus on technical excellence by Ubuntu would be greatly appreciated by end-users rather than silly cloud schemes and music stores which ape apple....

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 21:38 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (12 responses)

There is a deeper hypocrisy here than you realize. Look at the agenda for the upcoming Ubuntu hardware summit that is happening in Taipei this month.
http://www.ubuntu.com/uhs2010

At the same time that Shuttleworth is downplaying Canonical's role in low level technical work..other Canonical employees are focusing on the very same low level bits in communicating the value of Ubuntu to potential OEM customers.

Canonical can't have its cake and eat it too. It can't simultaneously bill itself as a technical leader to potential customers while at the same time deflecting criticism for under-involvement in the very same projects they want OEMs to _pay_ them for their expertise on.

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 22:39 UTC (Tue) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link]

"""
Canonical can't have its cake and eat it too. It can't simultaneously bill itself as a technical leader to potential customers while at the same time deflecting criticism for under-involvement in the very same projects they want OEMs to _pay_ them for their expertise on.
"""

Thats called marketing my friend.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 22:56 UTC (Tue) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link] (3 responses)

Hmm, I would agree that that is just your typical marketing "bending the truth" sort of thing.

My problem with all this UX talk is that Mark basically says that FOSS mostly sucks at user experience and that Canonical will do a lot better.
If you think that through that means that Canonical intends to build its own distinct UI and thus will essentially create a third major desktop environment besides Gnome and KDE (although it uses 90% Gnome under the hood)

All I can say is that at some point fragmentation is really bad and the paradox of choice is getting overwhelming. I really don't think Unity will unite Gnome and KDE under its hood (I really _really_ don't)

FOSS UI and Combined Desktop Summits

Posted Sep 15, 2010 4:24 UTC (Wed) by sladen (guest, #27402) [Link] (1 responses)

  1. FOSS UI experience doesn't suck
  2. FOSS UI experience does suck

If the first is true, then great. If the second is true and somebody comes along and has a jolly good go at fixing it, then also great. Either way (I wouldn't want to pass judgement) the result is great and the users will get what they wanted

As for allegations of fragmentation, why not come along to the Combined 2011 Desktop Summit in Berlin, in a little under a year? Having ones' own identity (XFCE, KDE, or GNOME) does not mean having to insular.

FOSS UI and Combined Desktop Summits

Posted Sep 15, 2010 15:11 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

I'll just add to this, I've been a long-time KDE user for yonks. I can't stand Gnome. Thing is, I have the *choice*!

I've also got a netbook with Linpus and Xfce (have I got that right?). No way do I want to put Ubuntu Remix on it because I DON'T WANT GNOME. But that's my *choice*, that's my *right*, and I DON'T have the right to force everybody else to like what I like.

That's fine by me. What I have noticed is that Canonical are focusing on their "papercut" campaign. What's the betting that a lot of the anti-canonical fervor is fuelled by Microsoft because they're scared the papercut campaign is actually WORKING! :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:12 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

"If you think that through that means that Canonical intends to build its own distinct UI and thus will essentially create a third major desktop environment besides Gnome and KDE (although it uses 90% Gnome under the hood)."

I fail to see the problem, here. Fragmentation is sometimes unfortunate, but this is Free Software. It's not as if we can't steal the good bits. If their UI is better, good. If their UI sucks, or people are annoyed because it is abnormal, then people will use something else.

If it puts free software in the hands of more people then whatever they do is good. The only issue here is if Canonical's behavior seriously hurts the revenues of companies who more directly support free software, such as Red Hat. That's an issue but I hardly think market penetration is to the point where we need to start worrying about backstabbing our allies.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 4:58 UTC (Wed) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]

See now, I read that as not doing the low-level kernel stuff unless being paid by the OEM to do so.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:11 UTC (Wed) by kirkland (guest, #53307) [Link] (5 responses)

Hi Jef,

I don't think there's a hypocrisy here.

Ubuntu delivers Linux to millions of people on millions of devices. The scale of these numbers appeal to hardware vendors. The hardware summit you speak of in Taipei is a tremendous opportunity to show hardware manufacturers what Linux is capable of, and why they should consider Linux a 1st class platform.

Canonical interfaces with hardware vendors every day, consistently stressing the importance of free, open, upstream drivers in the Linux kernel. As LWN readers are keen to point out, Canonical is not a leading contributor to the Linux kernel, but rather packagers of the kernel.

When Canonical leverages Ubuntu's numbers to persuade an OEM to prefer a display or wifi adapter or with a free upstream kernel implementation over another with proprietary-only drivers, all Linux user benefit.

This a symbiotic relationship. The Linux upstream community delivers a solid kernel with good drivers. Ubuntu depends on, packages, tests, stabilizes the vanilla releases, delivers and supports them for masses of people. Canonical interfaces with hardware vendors, and communicates the free software values of our community to OEMs. Manufacturers, in turn, take Linux seriously rather than an afterthought operating system.

You can despise Canonical and Ubuntu for writing so few lines of Linux kernel code. But the fact that Ubuntu is making that same Linux kernel accessible to huge numbers elevates the free software ecosystem to a level that hardware manufacturers can no longer ignore.

I've written a bit more about this in point #7 at:
[1] http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2010/08/how-work-i-do-bene...

Thanks,
:-Dustin

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:22 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (3 responses)

Does Canonical deliver systems on millions of devices? Can you state a methodology for how that is determined?

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:36 UTC (Wed) by kirkland (guest, #53307) [Link] (2 responses)

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:57 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

Pardon... but pointing to laypress articles with the Canonical executive deliberately goes out of his way to dodge a question about the counting methodology is not a useful response. It's not even artful.

The methodology for the 8 million estimate made in 2008 is not part of the public record. I am asking again, if you know what the counting methodology is, please describe in as in much detail as you can. Do you know how that number and all subsequent numbers are obtained?

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Oct 5, 2010 9:15 UTC (Tue) by mbp (subscriber, #2737) [Link]

Here's another discussion <http://ostatic.com/blog/canonical-announces-12-million-ub...>, basically saying it's done by measuring the number of unique IPs asking for updates. Since Ubuntu doesn't have a phone-home daemon and doesn't require user registration or a fee, it's always going to be a bit hard to measure, in the same way it's hard to count users of Python, Debian, or the Linux kernel.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:49 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

So on to the meat of your comment.

Feel free to disagree that its not hypocrisy. But the device manufacturer space isn't that big and both Android and Meego are right there competing with Ubuntu in the emerging "not a PC" device space. If you think the corporate backers for Android and Meego aren't going to make technical expertise part of their salespitch to win contracts..then you aren't really paying attention to how competitive the space is. Tablets have blown clamshell smartbook formfactors right out of the water..and as far as I can tell from public statements Canonical is just targetting clamshell formfactors...which puts Canonical behind the curve with the competition.

My point is not to belittle the actual technical work that Canonical is doing. My point is Canonical needs to _stop_ speaking out of both sides of its mouth and weakening their argument in terms of technical expertise by deflecting criticism about their technical contributions and equating popularity with expertise. Google in comparison it seems, takes criticism on technical leadership on the chin and seems to internalize it instead of deflecting it in an effort to manage perception. Instead of managing perception..they execute.

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 23:07 UTC (Tue) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (10 responses)

And once again, nowhere in the comments to date, is any mention of the major upstream of "Ubuntu" -- Debian. In pursuit of mindshare (isn't it clever that Ubuntu has positioned itself -- and even bragged about it -- so that it's "contribution" is marketing, and thereby "owning", everyone else's work -- it is cutting off the oxygen that actually feeds it.

It has taken, I might point out, a good four years for this to become obvious to many, despite some of us saying this from the first day.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 23:26 UTC (Tue) by chromatic (guest, #26207) [Link] (9 responses)

Is Ubuntu harming Debian? If so, how?

If so, is Debian harming upstream? If so, how? (Consider carefully Tuomo Valkonen and Mozilla Firefox as examples.)

This discussion is far more subtle than some of the comments in this thread would like to characterize it.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 4:45 UTC (Wed) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link] (8 responses)

I agree on the fact people are talking really black and white around here.

All in all I've contributed a meaningful amount of work to Debian as a Debian Developer, which I became eventually since I started using Ubuntu in 2004. Without Ubuntu, I'd be probably using SUSE still. I believe there are more stories like me, and eg. including the amount of co-operation between Ubuntu people and Debian people (teams like X), than the minority of negative effects.

This discussion board, when the topic is Ubuntu or Canonical, reminds me about the tabloid magazine discussion boards. And it reminds me about the dislike technical people have against anyone who succeeds in somewhere and does marketing - and Canonical even fares pretty badly, it will be MeeGo soon everywhere, and one can just hope also someone will know Ubuntu a few years from now. Canonical is still a rather small company, and Ubuntu has a minority market share that has not probably unfortunately raised to multiple percents on a global scale.

About the kernel bug fixing: yes, that's another thing people would want - all the Launchpad bugs fixed magically! Luckily there is only five hundred thousand of them, and about 30 (?) paid developers who also actually concentrate on the new features and maintain 3-4 past released distributions. The kernel team, which is one of the teams that is not one person at Canonical but more, of course is able to do something.

Kernel bugs do affect user experience, but it's a hopeless journey to try to fix everything for everyone. The FLOSS distributions need to get the market share _first_, even with the cost of not working for _some_ users, before they can eventually get real support from the vendors to fix the bugs like Microsoft does. The best one can do meanwhile is try to keep regressions to minimum, and even that is impossible with regards to keeping them to zero. LTS -> LTS of course tries it at least, but the many people (wrongly IMHO) use non-LTS Ubuntus even though they are clearly not targeted towards ordinary users because 18 months support time is clearly too short.

LWN is really degrading. It's not that critique shouldn't be said, the signal-to-noise ratio and the amount of rude and uninformed posts around here just starts to annoy compared to eg. 1-2 years back. Or then it's just me getting tired about the same iterations of discussions.

LWN vs. Slashdot

Posted Sep 15, 2010 6:09 UTC (Wed) by sladen (guest, #27402) [Link] (1 responses)

The Slashdot article comments on the same source give a completely different vibe in response. Seemingly on-topic, relevant, polite and (perhaps even) informed:

LWN vs. Slashdot

Posted Sep 15, 2010 22:00 UTC (Wed) by hingo (guest, #14792) [Link]

Huh, I thought you were joking, but no... How did this happen? (Note to self, need to check if HEL is freezing over.)

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 8:39 UTC (Wed) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think LWN is declining at all, but there are a few topics that always come with the same tired comment threads, Ubuntu being the prime example (and only one I can think of right now). Once I get back to Linux for my home desktop (currently enchained by Mr. Jobs), Ubuntu will probably be the first distribution I'll give a try. The Slashdot thread referenced elsewhere was quite interesting, alas unlikely to stop the fine rehash of ideas over here.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 13:36 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

> same tired comment threads,

Started and populated by the same people and practically the same comments each time.

> Ubuntu being the prime example (and only one I can think of right now).

I think linux kernel security policy is the *prime* example.

Yes, we know jspaleta doesn't like Ubuntu. We know PaxTeam doesn't like the kernel's security policy. We heard the first 50 times.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 15:59 UTC (Wed) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

The big difference is that Slashdot has comment moderation, and it's a much bigger community - LWN can easily be dominated by a few prolific commenters who happen to dislike Ubuntu/Canonical

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 8:52 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> The FLOSS distributions need to get the market share _first_, even with the cost of not working for _some_ users, before they can eventually get real support from the vendors to fix the bugs like Microsoft does.

By the way, even in Windows drivers suck sometimes for some cheap devices. And let's not even mention the Vista mess.

> LWN is really degrading. [...] the signal-to-noise ratio and the amount of rude and uninformed posts around here just starts to annoy compared to eg. 1-2 years back.

Sorry I joined.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:03 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

>And it reminds me about the dislike technical people have against anyone who succeeds in somewhere and does marketing

This is commonplace. “Everybody” dislikes Microsoft, dislikes Apple, etc. Technical people, as you call it, rather than trying to make a product that /sells/ well (besides being possibly dumbed down and/or forced out the door), try to make a /good/ product. If it *then* succeeds in somewhere (think last 10 years of Linux), well that is then just a welcome side-effect.

With how bug reporting in launchpad is described here, I just can't see the "good" part in Ubuntu. (There is a difference between striving to be good, and others actually being good right now.)

Degrading quality

Posted Sep 16, 2010 6:43 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

LWN is really degrading. It's not that critique shouldn't be said, the signal-to-noise ratio and the amount of rude and uninformed posts around here just starts to annoy compared to eg. 1-2 years back.
Indeed. Posts like yours (a true gem by the way) are increasingly hard to find in the noise. What is extraordinary is not that LWN is degrading, but that it was so good a year ago.

Just to add something on-topic: this poor s/n ratio reminds me vaguely of how Ubuntu improves the user experience. Just worry about users (readers) first, and not so much about your particular obsession. After a point you have to let go; make it sooner rather than later so we all win.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 5:25 UTC (Wed) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (11 responses)

Sure linux has an upstream structure and it is often unwise and inefficient as a distributor to ignore this reality but in the end if you are not pulling your weight in kernel land you are letting end-users down.

Yes, and at the same time, a failure to make real code contributions lets other developers down (in this case, Debian upstream in particular). Ultimately a system in which everyone just "paints" and "packages" isn't sustainable, and that does hurt end users and contributors alike.

The Ubuntu controversy is like a rehash of some of the controversy over Red Hat following its IPO more than ten years ago.

It just doesn't seem right when the actual creators and innovators don't benefit from their work and can't exclude free riders. I know this is going to be kind of controversial, but in my opinion a lot of people in the FOSS community should look at their instinctive reaction to the Ubuntu situation and draw one important conclusion: the legal system created intellectual property rights to address exactly that kind of problem, and to provide sustainability.

The IPR system has its counterproductive protuberances, but the basic underlying idea is a good one and the debate over the adequacy of Ubuntu's contributions is in my opinion the ultimate validation of the notion of intellectual property. No matter how much we all appreciate the benefits of sharing, let's also respect the principle of legal protection for real creators because those who choose IPR-based business models have every right not to want to support "leeching". Both models can coexist, provided that reasonable people take constructive approaches. We can't just replace all innovative industries with a "sharing" model because that would disincentivize investment in some areas. For an example, there's no way anyone could recuperate a huge investment in a computer game with a "free sharing" model.

Leeching isn't sustainable. Every parasite will eventually need a host.

By the way, it's an irony of fate that last year some people supporting Oracle's acquisition of Sun blamed the business model of MySQL AB for the very opposite thing: for one IP-centric company contributing too much instead of a more Linux-like approach. Some of those who said that MySQL should have pursued a different model were simply shilling for Oracle, but others were misguided. None of them had any kind of business credibility to argue against the financial success that MySQL AB was (a $1 billion sale), let alone even 1% of the credibility of its lead investors, who had previously seed-funded Red Hat and were thus quite aware of the Linux approach and were generally more capable business builders (they also financed eBay and many other big successes, recently also Twitter) than those who said they would have known better.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 9:01 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> For an example, there's no way anyone could recuperate a huge investment in a computer game with a "free sharing" model.

So society as a whole would lose most computer games, granted. But maybe win bigger elsewhere.

I am not saying you are wrong; just not convincing enough. I suggest you do not waste any more of your time trying to be more convincing: the outcome of social experiments is notoriously impossible to predict.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:04 UTC (Wed) by swetland (guest, #63414) [Link] (9 responses)

I'm always perplexed by this whole "I wrote this software and made it available under {GPL,BSD,Apache,etc} which allows others to take it, include it in other products, sell those products, sell services around those products, or whatever, and now I'm angry that they're not paying me!" thing. Substitute "contributing patches back" or whatnot for "paying me" as appropriate.

I don't mean people violating the license -- I mean cases of party A being upset at party B (that is 100% in compliance with the license the software party A wrote is under) because they're not doing something above and beyond what the license requires (or not doing the "right thing" above and beyond it).

It's definitely *nice* if people go above and beyond the letter of the license and contribute time, money, whatever back to the creators/community, but if the desire is *require* that, a different license may be in order.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:57 UTC (Wed) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Couldn't agree more.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:12 UTC (Wed) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (4 responses)

Couldn't agree more. Even more weirdly, the people who wrote the original code are rarely anything like as angry as non-coding-professional-malcontents, whose sole contribution to the "debate" is to sling the same tedious accusations of "not contributing to upstream" or "fork! fork! fork!" everytime Mark Shuttleworth adjusts his tie.

Jef: you don't like Ubuntu - we get it. Have you consdired making something better instead of wasting everyone's time flinging manure?

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 16:53 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (3 responses)

I've never actually made a statement anywhere where I state a like or dislike for Ubuntu. It's no qnx.

I have very grave concerns about Canonical as a for-profit entity and the choices they are making as a for-profit entity in building a set of unsustainable business practises which work against the long term interests of the larger open ecosystem... including Ubuntu as a project.

For me, Google and Canonical are an interesting pair of companies to compare and contrast in terms of corporate culture. For example I've never seen a Google employee deflect direct criticism about a lack of upstream kernel contribution with commentary about how great it is that Android has been so wildly popular and that should be counted as a contribution to weight against the lack of mainline kernel involvement.

-jef

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 16, 2010 8:18 UTC (Thu) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

For example I've never seen a Google employee deflect direct criticism about a lack of upstream kernel contribution with commentary about how great it is that Android has been so wildly popular and that should be counted as a contribution to weight against the lack of mainline kernel involvement.

No, but on the other hand, I've ever seen anyone spend his life railing against Google for ripping off the work of Atomide, Nokia, Russell King, Simtec, Samsung, et al, by being notably low on the linux-arm contributor list. Nor have I seen anyone claiming on one hand that Google are lousy open source citizens, while on the other that any contributions they do make must be discounted because they don't understand and/or believe in its business model. I guess Google have it easy then.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 16, 2010 8:52 UTC (Thu) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (1 responses)

I have very grave concerns about Canonical as a for-profit entity and the choices they are making as a for-profit entity in building a set of unsustainable business practises which work against the long term interests of the larger open ecosystem... including Ubuntu as a project.
We know, Jef, because you seem to have a compelling need to bring it up on absolutely every ubuntu-related thread in LWN.

We get it. We understand. You've made your point. Now find new/interesting to say, or just stick it on a blog, where it doesn't impinge on people who want to read novel, informed, interesting, thought-out opinions, which LWN was (formerly) well known for, before the rise of the single-issue-pressure commenter.

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 16, 2010 22:39 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

Point of fact, I did not comment on the recent "How Ubuntu is made" thread. So your comment is demonstratively incorrect. But in an effort to make an honest person out of you, I can try to make the time to add a comment on that thread.

Please, lets try to avoid the hyperbole which stretches the truth beyond what is supported by fact. Next you'll be saying you've estimated that I've made millions of individual postings over the last 6 years.

-jef

The Ubuntu contribution controversy shows our innate respect for intellectual property

Posted Sep 15, 2010 14:43 UTC (Wed) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link]

In normal society it's common to expect people to be pleasant to each other, observe social niceties and conventions, and generally try to be decent, rather than simply doing the bare minimum required to stay within the letter of the law.

For the most part it's legal to be a complete bastard, but that doesn't mean that anyone should expect to do so without attracting criticism.

The bottom line is that other Free software companies (including ones smaller than Canonical) contribute a lot more to the shared pool of 'upstream' projects than Canonical do, and that behaviour is better than Canonical's behaviour. If the best defence anyone can come up with is "we're not actually violating the licences", then that's pretty weak.

Giving back is the spirit of open source not the desire.

Posted Sep 15, 2010 16:11 UTC (Wed) by southey (guest, #9466) [Link] (1 responses)

For example, Why does the GPL permit users to publish their modified versions? A crucial aspect of free software is that users are free to cooperate. It is absolutely essential to permit users who wish to help each other to share their bug fixes and improvements with other users.

Unlike the rhetoric from Ubuntu/Canonical, this is one aspect that is always missing in the vast majority of Ubuntu/Canonical supporters. Sure the code is provided but you have to know that it is present. Why should developer from some project have to monitor any bug tracker that is not their own? Also, you have work out how to use that fix upstream so that it fixes the problem without creating other potentially worse problems. The other weird aspect is that Ubuntu/Canonical seem to like fixing the same bugs instead of getting them fixed upstream.

Giving back is the spirit of open source not the desire.

Posted Sep 15, 2010 17:28 UTC (Wed) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

I think you are missing the point, both the general one raised by the OP, as well as the one made in the paragraph from which you quote. Perhaps you should read it again? It addresses whether improvements should go through the original author, for instance, and whether it is bad to have multiple versions of the same program.

(Ubuntu and Canonical are two completely different things, by the way.)

Specifics please

Posted Sep 15, 2010 5:46 UTC (Wed) by sladen (guest, #27402) [Link]

At the risk of sounding like Novell towards SCO ...could we please share some specifics here:
  1. What's your Launchpad account name?

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 13:35 UTC (Thu) by BaldHeadedGeek (guest, #1078) [Link]

"...and simply focus on the end-user is rather glib and...."

You know you are a geek when you read that as "...end-user is rather gee-lib and..."

There are many "user focused" distros

Posted Sep 14, 2010 21:37 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] (2 responses)

There have been a number of "user focused" distros over the past decade. Many of them are no longer around because they were commercial in nature and they couldn't turn a profit.

Corel became Xandros. Lindows became Linspire... that became Xandros. There are a few others. Take Mandrake... errr... Mandriva for another example.

How is Ubuntu / Canonical doing so much better than all of those? I think it has to do with timing and money.

I certainly wish Canonical well as they do offer up a bit of competition in the Linux marketplace... and if they are able to pull off profitability it would be another win for FOSS businesses... although there are those who wouldn't call them a purely FOSS business.

There are many "user focused" distros

Posted Sep 15, 2010 0:15 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

The problem as noted very succinctly above is that Mark is telling everyone they don't do technical while trying to convince people to pay them because they are technical leaders. It's a failed business plan. Why on earth would anyone pay Canonical money when their owner is saying they don't do technical. Especially when they could go to Redhat and know with certainty that Redhat can, will and does frequently fix major kernel and technical problems in the entire FOSS ecosystem? Heck even Novel is sufficiently positions to do far more to fix problems than Canonical.

So if Mark's plan is to be Microsoft's marketing arm for Linux, why does he think he can be successful when he doesn't have the technical ability to fix real user problems other than moving the close window button to the other size of the window?

I've said it before, as soon as Suttleworth cuts off Canonical's access to his wallet the company is ground meat. You can't succeed in the FOSS community without technical leadership.

There are many "user focused" distros

Posted Sep 15, 2010 7:23 UTC (Wed) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

>There have been a number of "user focused" distros over the past decade. Many of them are no longer around because they were commercial in nature and they couldn't turn a profit.
> Corel became Xandros. Lindows became Linspire... that became Xandros. There are a few others. Take Mandrake... errr... Mandriva for another example.
>How is Ubuntu / Canonical doing so much better than all of those? I think it has to do with timing and money.

Ubuntu does a lot better because:

1. They managed to get their name associated with "desktop linux" in a way that all others didn't. This is really not to be underestimated. Loads of friends of mine wanted a "linux desktop" back then, and they all would install "server oriented" Suse or Redhat, because those were the names they knew.

2. Of all names you quoted, Ubuntu is the only distribution going out of their way to give prospective users a ISO file.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 22:56 UTC (Tue) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link] (15 responses)

I think there are far too many plumbers and not enough painters in the Open Source community.

I like Ubuntu 10.04, it has a lot of defaults that average computer users prefer, even my girlfriend is now using it because she was sick of Windows.

Also, I think the competition has helped push other distros like Fedora to improve the desktop experience even though they make their money off server installs. Ubuntu made upstart, now Fedora is trying to one up Upstart. I do not think that would have happened if upstart was not first created. Boot time is something a server company really does not care about, until now.(Well, I doubt Red Hat really cares still as a whole, but someone in the company noticed and is trying to improve the situation)

Maybe all the people complaining should create a new license for there software GPL4 which requires all users of the code to work on the upstream project or else they cannot distribute it.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 4:00 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (7 responses)

"Also, I think the competition has helped push other distros like Fedora to improve the desktop experience even though they make their money off server installs"

You are equating Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora there. Fedora isn't making any money anywhere. Red Hat does large amount of desktop work (amoung the largest contributor to Xorg, Freedesktop and GNOME) and has done so even before Ubuntu ever existed. Nevertheless, I agree that competition certain spurs more innovation.

"Ubuntu made upstart, now Fedora is trying to one up Upstart. I do not think that would have happened if upstart was not first created. Boot time is something a server company really does not care about, until now.(Well, I doubt Red Hat really cares still as a whole, but someone in the company noticed and is trying to improve the situation)"

Lennart wrote systemd and has been working on making it default for Fedora but he didn't write it for Fedora and noone in Red Hat or Fedora told him to do it. Now that he has written and proposed it, of course, Fedora is considering it and likely will make it the default in the next release.

Long before Upstart was developed, there were several efforts to replace sysvinit. Refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FCNewInit. A completely different init system was developed according to Fedora specifications (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNewInit) but the project decided to adopt Upstart anyway.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 18:08 UTC (Wed) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link] (3 responses)

"You are equating Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora there. Fedora isn't making any money anywhere. Red Hat does large amount of desktop work (amoung the largest contributor to Xorg, Freedesktop and GNOME) and has done so even before Ubuntu ever existed. Nevertheless, I agree that competition certain spurs more innovation."

Fedora is sponsored with money raised off of selling REL support contracts. A lot of open source developers are able to make a living programing open source projects based off of REL money, plus Stuff in Fedora will most likely make it into REL if all goes well. I never said that Red Hat was not making desktop software before Ubuntu. I used to use Red Hat 7 before Ubuntu or Fedora ever exist and while at the time it was a huge step forward in Linux on the desktop it was not "a great experience".

"Lennart wrote systemd and has been working on making it default for Fedora but he didn't write it for Fedora and noone in Red Hat or Fedora told him to do it. Now that he has written and proposed it, of course, Fedora is considering it and likely will make it the default in the next release. "

Yeah, but if he didn't happen to work at Red Hat and Upstart did not break the barrier of changing the init process then Fedora would not be considering this change. Changing the init process is a HUGE liability. I feel Upstart broke the 20 year barrier and is giving other init systems a chance to emerge. And that is a direct result of Ubuntu's emphasis on the desktop.

I appreciate Red Hat for all the work they have done and think it is cool they have been able to make profit off of supporting Linux while keeping their work open source. Yet, anyone who thinks Red hat is funding projects off of money they are making from desktop sales is crazy.

I like Ubuntu for their work on bringing Linux to the desktop, but you have to remember Ubuntu is trying to make their money off of the desktop and Red Hat is not.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 18:43 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (2 responses)

"I appreciate Red Hat for all the work they have done and think it is cool they have been able to make profit off of supporting Linux while keeping their work open source. Yet, anyone who thinks Red hat is funding projects off of money they are making from desktop sales is crazy.

I like Ubuntu for their work on bringing Linux to the desktop, but you have to remember Ubuntu is trying to make their money off of the desktop and Red Hat is not."

Is Canonical really _trying_ to make money off the desktop? Where's Canonical's revenue strength and potential revenue growth really? Is it really the desktop? I'm just not seeing it.

Let's take for example the certified hardware list for the 10.04 release.
http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/

The vast majority of _certified_ systems for the last 4 releases are _servers_. _Certification_ is an important OEM revenue stream for Canonical in place of software price tag for each Ubuntu pre-install that goes out the door.

We know nothing really about how the Landscape services are being adopted..Canonical doesn't talk about Landscape adoption all that much. But we can't really assume that its being used primarily for desktops. Not when their case study of merit on their own website highlights Landscape to manage a set of _server_ deployments.

http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/plus-server-de...

Training? Most of their training services are server focused.

Support Contracts? They do offer end-user support for desktops. But there's precious little information about the uptake on that. Nor is there any corroborating case study pr which would could be stood up to infer a focus.

The only thing so far that Canonical has put other that as the potential to turn desktops into a viable revenue stream is Ubuntu One. And that is an extremely new offering which quite frankly is going to have to compete directly with more and more service offerings frrom Google over the next year. And its far from clear that Canonical can effectively compete in the web services space and make this a revenue generator to fund other efforts beyond the expense of just keeping the infrastructure for Ubuntu One paid for. I would love to see Ubuntu One be that revenue generator, but with a userbase and a corporate culture that has a religious fervour for pragmatism, building Ubuntu-centric web services in competition with interoperable web services from Google seems an uphill battle.

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 12:02 UTC (Thu) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (1 responses)

> Is Canonical really _trying_ to make money off the desktop? Where's Canonical's revenue strength and potential revenue growth really? Is it really the desktop? I'm just not seeing it.

I don't know what is going on in the mind of Mr Shuttleworth and his crew, but if they really were aiming at making revenue on the server front then the publicity payback from their investments in the desktop (and perhaps even from some of the controversy surrounding them) might well justify the investment.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 23:07 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

Most assuredly... a loss leader desktop experience is definitely a strategic sales tactic on the part of Canonical. Loss leader give-aways have always been a tool for increasing brand recognition for businesses looking to increase mindshare for their product. Its the reason I got a free Gillette razor in my welcome to campus goody bag when I started college 327 years ago.

Canonical gets full points for leveraging the loss-leader concept and creating brand recognition. Loss-leader product brand loyality achievement unlocked!

Problem is, Canonical hasn't really figured out what their razorblade is. What their actually revenue generator product or service is, or for that matter what their product audience is. They are all over the map with very little focus.

Shuttleworth's need to see Canonical's value adequately recognized as a corporate contributor to the larger ecosystem is quite frankly more evidence of a lack of business focus. Clearly in the last couple of week the order came down from up on high inside Canonical for their engineer staff to articulate how they think they are valuable in an effort to shore up perception (internal or external I don't know). I hope the exercise helps them all feel better..I really do. But its not going to help them win revenue generating contracts because very little of of it advanced a value proposition associated with any particular Canonical product or service that people..that companies..are suppose to fork money over for. A missed opportunity all around.

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 20:11 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

Lennart wrote systemd and has been working on making it default for Fedora but he didn't write it for Fedora
Oh please. Half of Lennart's responses to people reporting bugs in PulseAudio on other distributions were 'switch to Fedora' (although he did help them out as well, unless they were unlucky enough to be using Ubuntu).

Lennart has been explicit in the past that he doesn't care about portability, either cross-OS or cross-distro. He wrote PulseAudio for Fedora and he wrote systemd for Fedora as well. Some of us disagree with that position (it's ridiculous that a sound API only works on one Unix variant for instance), but it plainly is his position, and he has his reasons (nobody has stepped up to port PA to other Unixes and nobody is likely to step up to port systemd, although both use so many Linux-specific things that doing so would be an utter sod in any case).

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 20:25 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

He has been explicit about non cross OS but don't recall anything against cross-distro. PulseAudio certainly has been adopted by all the major distros quickly. The claim that he wrote PulseAudio for Fedora is utter nonsense. He wasn't working for Red Hat when he started the project and has no involvement in Fedora either.

If you can find a single reference to Lennart asking anyone to switch to Fedora for any systemd bug, I am all ears. As far as I can see, he has gone out of his way to provide compatibility with all the different quirks in the boot process and distro specific extensions in not just Fedora but Debian and openSUSE as well. Kay from SUSE has been working with Lennart on systemd from the early days.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 12:14 UTC (Thu) by juliank (guest, #45896) [Link]

> noone in Red Hat or Fedora told him to

It's "no one", not "noone"; "noone" is a (n old) form of "noon".

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:13 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link] (6 responses)

"I think there are far too many plumbers and not enough painters in the Open Source community."

It's all well and good saying this until you don't have any wifi drivers. All the paint in the world doesn't help you then.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:17 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (2 responses)

Maybe if Linux was more popular, we would get proper drivers straight from the vendors? Why do people think that if Ubuntu becomes popular, people actually improving Linux will get fewer and fewer?

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:34 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

If Canonical have no desire to put more work into core Linux components, and if some of Canonical's market share is inevitably at the expense of companies that currently fund the development of those components, is the number of people working on those components sustainable?

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 13:06 UTC (Wed) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link]

Market share within a growing market... Lots of shenanigans work out fine in a growth market. Should computing ever reach saturation, then we'll need to worry.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 18:15 UTC (Wed) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link] (2 responses)

"It's all well and good saying this until you don't have any wifi drivers. All the paint in the world doesn't help you then."

But we have tons of Linux programmers who are paid good money to support Linux hardware. How many people are being paid to make Linux "Look Pretty."

I work with Linux programming embedded systems. We do not give many changes back to the community and no one yells at us. The reason is not that we do not want to, but rather: One, they don't want most our changes because they are board specific hacks. Two, we are still running 2.6.19 which does not really have a huge following. Three, most people do not care that our product is Linux, rather they care that it works.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 18:47 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

Is this ARM embedded? If so are you keeping up with Linaro and looking at that as a way to get beyond the board specific hacking?

-jef

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 8:18 UTC (Thu) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

Is this ARM embedded? If so are you keeping up with Linaro and looking at that as a way to get beyond the board specific hacking?

If your problem is 'this board is wired up wrong and thus needs these fiddly errata', then that doesn't help you much. Especially when you explode to thousands of boards.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 14, 2010 23:18 UTC (Tue) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (2 responses)

This is just Mark being typically disingenuous, again. The problem isn't (just) about what Canonical doesn't do. The problem is that the good stuff that they do do doesn't get fed back to the real upstream projects where it can benefit everyone, not just Ubuntu users.

This sort of attempted misdirection ("We contribute elsewhere!") and more blatant falsehoods ("Our desktop upstream is Ayatana!") just insult everyone's intelligence.

Contributing upstream, or not

Posted Sep 15, 2010 6:43 UTC (Wed) by sladen (guest, #27402) [Link] (1 responses)

Of course, you are be 100% correct. Canonical makes effort to contribute absolutely anything upstream. Not even one single measly papercut (patch), or ten, or hundred, or …

(…or perhaps the rest of the assertion was equally misconstrued).

Contributing upstream, or not

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:15 UTC (Wed) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link]

I'd be happy if you could try not being sarcastic in this non-obvious way, even after reading your comments 4 times, I still don't get what you exactly wanted to say -- while the previous commenter made a fair (and clear) point.

The critique was not only that Canonical doesn't contribute enough to upstream projects, it's also that they doing it in a way which is incompatible with Free Software economics, and that hurts the whole ecosystem. (I.e. they're keeping some of the changes they make for themselves, and, much worse, they're pushing solutions which are incompatible with upstream to third party projects (their version of notifications), so that upstream has a harder time making applications work well across different environments (Ubuntu Desktop, GNOME and KDE). First hand experience here, btw.

On top of that, they're trying to support their behaviour by misleading the public opinion, here I'm referring as well to the "Ayatana is upstream" bullshit we've been hearing for a while now.

That, indeed, is insulting the readers' intelligence.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 0:22 UTC (Wed) by paravoid (subscriber, #32869) [Link]

Well, many of these projects (e.g. GNOME, KDE) also have (and had before) "end user focus" as their goals and several companies, including Canonical's competitors, were contributing to that.

Canonical attempted to do the same from a side way instead of by contributing to the same project (in technical stuff, this is what we're calling "forking"). They're essentially trying to reach the end-user via their own means and on their own and differentiate themselves by their competitors. They may try to contribute back things to the rest of the community but it's usually an afterthought, rather than the initial goal.

Now, this may be sensible as a business model and it may make sense for Canonical to do that to position itself in the market. It's also perfectly fine in the sense that, as a community, we've always struggled to have the mechanisms in place (primarly licensing) for people to be able to do such things.

It's understandable, though, how members of the community may be annoyed by this and I don't think this will make them feel any better.

(to be clear, I am not one of them. I don't care where my work ends up, as long as users are ultimately benefited)

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 5:26 UTC (Wed) by forlwn (guest, #63934) [Link] (6 responses)

I don't see anybody buying a car because it just runs, no matter if it's not painted, if it's open air or even if it's only 1 seat inside.
Does 1 seat is just enough? Maybe it doesn't also needs a body. Providing that technologically it's a gem, any geek will always be able to attach a stool to it's chassis, with a few ropes, and go for a glorious drive in it.
My understanding about Shuttleworth's text, is that he's committed to provide the resources to put that technologically advanced car at a condition that will allow everybody to feel that's easy, comfortable and attractive to use it.
Why should he be contributing to technologically further develop the unfinished car, knowing in advance that nobody would want to use it?
Why does so many developers refuse to admit that Linux never took off of the ground because it has always been an unfinished product?
Does someone means that that is the way Linux has to remain? Then, let's admit it and explain why, to the world.
I believe that as of a starting point, Shuttleworth had to choose between two options, and many people today, all over the world, is very happy and grateful about his decision. Except, of course, a bunch of M$ fanboys.
Besides that, there are hundreds of distros based on Ubunto. Nobody has ever heard Shuttleworth complaining at those distros, for being not contributing back to Ubuntu.
Also, the major whiners out there, should be aware that Shuttleworth has been donating to various FLOSS projects and entities, since many years.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:39 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (4 responses)

It doesn't matter how immaculately painted and streamlined the car is, and how luxurious its seats are, if the engine seizes up when you turn left in third gear with someone weighing more than 30kg sitting in the front passenger seat.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:44 UTC (Wed) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link] (2 responses)

So it's popular because it's buggier than others? Your logic is compelling...

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:23 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (1 responses)

OK, my clarity was low there. The intended point is that fixing kernel/driver bugs is "finishing the product" and "improving the user experience", because kernel/driver bugs make mad things happen, and systems that do mad things create bad user experience and the impression of incompleteness.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 16:09 UTC (Wed) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

Right. You are correct that this will help, but clearly Ubuntu works well enough for the majority because it would hardly be popular otherwise.

To use a hated car analogy: The way I see it, Ubuntu is like a car that you can begin driving just by turning the key. Too many other distributions seem to make it difficult to take their distribution for a test drive, either by having the installer fail to work on user's computer, or having the installer be too complex to use, or by asking too many questions that the user doesn't know how to answer.

If ubuntu's "engine" leaks a bit in practice, that is almost irrelevant compared to the hordes of users that are able to try it out, and I'm sure it will work just fine for the majority of users, who would find your criticism bizarre. Ubuntu has been largely hassle-free for me, and even new installs of the OS are instantly usable, without having to spend time working out how to configure X, sound or wifi.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:37 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]

Are you saying that Ubuntu is at risk of crashing, freezing and otherwise failing, whereas Fedora, SUSE etc. are not?

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:40 UTC (Wed) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

Thanks for writing this. You made the point that I was going to make, that Ubuntu is closer to a finished product than the others. The fact that Linux is a developer-centric OS would seem to be the reason that has doomed it to irrelevance, indeed.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 9:49 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (13 responses)

I don't really understand the antipathy towards Ubuntu. Are we worse off because of Ubuntu? If so, how?

Ubuntu wants to create the best possible Linux-distribution possible. Now, there's nothing wrong with that goal. So what IS the problem? The fact that they do not contribute as much back as some other distro does? But does that actively harm anyone? I mean, Ubuntu is not sabotaging SUSE or Fedora or Gentoo.

Or is that argument tied to the argument that "But Ubuntu is just too popular!". If that is the case.... why is Ubuntu so popular? Could it be because they focused their efforts on areas that other distros do not?

So what exactly is the worry here? That Ubuntu will cause people to stop improving Linux? How so? Even if Ubuntu was the biggest player around, there would still be people improving Linux. And if Ubuntu manages to increase the number of Linux-users, maybe the number of active contributors will also go up? If 10% of Linux-users are actively helping out Linux (I'm pulling these numbers from my butt), and Ubuntu causes the number of Linux-users to double, while the percentage of active participants drops to 5%, we still have same number of participants. If the percentange is 6% and not 5, then we would have MORE participants that we had in the beginning.

OR is this some kind of philosophical idea that "you are not worth anything if you do not write code"? Linux has been about code and patches fir the first 15 years of it's existence. And while it did bring it success, it also relegated it to niches. Maybe it's about time we brought in alternative viewpoints and approaches as well? Remember, Ubuntu is not stopping anyone from writing code and improving Linux.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:10 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link] (8 responses)

>why is Ubuntu so popular?

Because it is trying to be Windows. Including bugs. Face it: by means of reducing the user experience (cf. http://lwn.net/Articles/405086/ )

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 10:51 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (7 responses)

"Because it is trying to be Windows."

No, it isn't. Or does Ubuntu-desktop look like Windows? Whereas Fedora (for example) does not?

Besides, some of the complaints I heard was that Ubuntu looks like Mac OS X. So which one is it? OS X or Windows? It can't be both at the same time.

"Including bugs."

All software has bugs. Yes, that includes other distros as well.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:11 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link] (6 responses)

>No, it isn't. Or does Ubuntu-desktop look like Windows?

To displace Windows per https://launchpad.net/bugs/1 , it has to become Windows. Not by choice of desktop wallpaper of course — many WM styles have tried copying the looks but have not had overly much success with it.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:35 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (5 responses)

No, it does not have to "become Windows". It just have to fulfill the same needs among people that Windows currently satisfies.

And.... I'm quite at a loss here... We have had install-fests and we have had attempts at making Linux popular. We cheer when Linux gains ground and gets more popular. But now the argument is that if Ubuntu has any part in that, it's bad because Ubuntu is "becoming Windows". If becoming more popular is a bad thing, then why are we cheering if/when Linux becomes more popular?

So, if Linux (as a whole that is) got more popular, it too would "become Windows". So, should we actively try to make Linux as unpopular as possible?

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 11:54 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link] (4 responses)

>It just have to fulfill the same needs among people that Windows currently satisfies.

Ah of course. People want bugs and other nagging issues! :D

>So, if Linux (as a whole that is) got more popular,

Unfortunately a large deal is not Linux being popular, but the Ubuntu"sphere". They like things because it's Ubuntu, not because it has Linux under the hood. (Similar to Apple fanboys.)

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 12:23 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (3 responses)

"Ah of course. People want bugs and other nagging issues! :D"

Why don't you try to make sensible comments, instead of wasting our time with crap?

"Unfortunately a large deal is not Linux being popular, but the Ubuntu"sphere". They like things because it's Ubuntu, not because it has Linux under the hood. (Similar to Apple fanboys.)"

So what? Who cares why they like it, as long as they like it? We all have different reasons for liking the things we like. You can't go around saying "you need to like this thing because of X and Y". If someone uses Ubuntu because his favourite color is brown, who are we to tell him otherwise?

FWIW, I like Mac OS X because it's smooth, polished and it works. Not because "OMG, it's OS X!".

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 13:03 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link] (2 responses)

>FWIW, I like Mac OS X because it's smooth, polished and it works. Not because "OMG, it's OS X!".

All that I said was basically Ubuntu may have its own distinct set of features or antifeatures that are attractive to a certain kind of user group. For OSX that may be "smooth", "polished" and "it works", for Ubuntu it may be the opposite. Or something else.

>>"Unfortunately a large deal is not Linux being popular, but the Ubuntu"sphere".
>So what?

The point here is that I believe that the majority of its users would not care what sort of kernel or system tool level (currently that would be GNU) they run, or how much GPLd freedom they got out of it. If that is so, then it's not really Linux that is popular, but that what they actually care about, such as UI or so.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 13:15 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (1 responses)

"The point here is that I believe that the majority of its users would not care what sort of kernel or system tool level (currently that would be GNU) they run, or how much GPLd freedom they got out of it. If that is so, then it's not really Linux that is popular, but that what they actually care about, such as UI or so."

Well, fact is that most people simply DO NOT CARE about any of that stuff, so why should we try to force them? If we start to talk to them about kernels and toolchains, their eyes will glaze over. If you start talking about GPL, they will interrupt you after one minute and say "I'm just an user, not a coder. That GPL-stuff does not bring any benefits to me personally".

Most people do not live and breathe computers. They use them for specific tasks. They simply do not care about licenses, kernels and all that other stuff.

And maybe this is why Linux on the desktop has failed. We keep on talking about boring technical stuff (kernels, toolchains etc.) or boring legaleze (licenses), when the fact is that people simply do not care.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 16:26 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

I think it's more that Linux-on-the-desktop really wasn't ready - at either the "paint" or "plumbing" levels - to be hyped to Joe User when the first "year of the Linux desktop" hype started appearing. As a result, an awful lot of Joe User types have probably been put off the notion of Linux on the desktop - possibly permanently - by being handed a half-baked Linux desktop by someone raving about how great it is, or by hearing their friends' tales about having that happen.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 12:20 UTC (Thu) by ccurtis (guest, #49713) [Link] (3 responses)

I don't really understand the antipathy towards Ubuntu. Are we worse off because of Ubuntu? If so, how?

For the record, I am a Ubuntu/Debian user and have had a distaste for RedHat because of their configuration layout, even though it's been over 10 years since I really tried to use any RedHat/RPM based distro.

Most of the Ubuntu vitriol seems to stem from envy, but there is a potential downside here: RedHat is a massive contributor to the Linux ecosystem and they do depend on their income to sustain the contributions they make.

If Ubuntu cannibalizes RedHat's revenue stream because of its funding model, ultimately causing RedHat's demise, they are showing no aptitude to make up that slack. In theory Ubuntu could hire every former RedHat developer and progress could go on unimpeded, but without evidence to the contrary that's just wishful thinking.

Imagine that Microsoft decided to produce "MS Linux/2". Using their marketing and ISV power it gets preinstalled as a dual-boot option on every computer. They hire engineers to polish it, and write their own independent software ecosystem for it. But they only port some of their applications, and while they publically encourage competitors to port to the platform, they secretly tell their closest partners to hold off.

They don't contribute directly to the plumbing, but make "incompatible-with-upstream" changes to suit their needs. They turn on the hype machine and ship a couple versions. Then they announce that the market is not sustainable and they are abondoning the platform, and that it's time to move everyone to this newfangled "Windows NT". The competition, say Lotus and WordPerfect for example, get annihilated in the transition.

Of course, in the Linux version of this parable, MS uses their massive cash reserves to kill the revenue stream of vendors like RedHat and Suse. The developers either get scattered or absorbed into other companies (like IBM/Lotus). Once there, they become pawns of corporate whimsy. MS has already shown that the Linux model is a failure, and the business/VC money community refuses to fund pure-Linux startups. The ecosystem becomes more fractured.

So, yes, in that sense it is possible for Ubuntu to do damage with their current behavior, but I think the fears are overblown. Right now, I do feel that Ubuntu is "shaking things up" in a good way, and we are lucky that someone like Shuttleworth is using his money to help grow the Linux community. The process may be a bit messy, and some people may think that Ubuntu is being given undeserved credit, but you don't know what the dead ends are until you find them and we're still moving forward.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 14:26 UTC (Fri) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link] (2 responses)

Like the shuttleman implies, Linux is a developer-centric OS. I have the heretical idea that Linux would actually benefit if development ceased, simply because a slower-moving OS might actually attract corporations that could perhaps publish decent closed-source apps that might work for longer than about 6 months before being broken by some incompatible change or rewrite of existing component that looks kinda like the old but has different suite of bugs.

Face it, the fundamental OS is already good enough. It's applications that are missing, and producing new versions of, say, GTK+ is actually counterproductive because every new GTK+ version always breaks something. It's the constant breakage that destroys value, and reduces user experience. I'm afraid that soon the only thing Linux will be good for is running the browser, and applications in browser-constructed sandboxes because browser abstracts the underlying platform away and can provide the stable APIs that 3rd party applications need.

Another alternative is that Android basically replaces the entire Linux stack and becomes the de-facto desktop solution simply because Android is a stable, versioned target. Android's success derives probably from the fact that deployment is a solved problem, unlike with Linux distributors that paradoxically make distributing things pretty damn hard.

Stability. Versioned updates. Don't touch what's broken. Fail at these, and I suppose the future is with ChromeOS or Android, and even Ubuntu's desktop offering will just fade away as irrelevant.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 20:28 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (1 responses)

Don't touch what's broken.

Is that a mistype for "what isn't" or am I spectacularly missing the point? :)

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 18, 2010 19:25 UTC (Sat) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

Good catch. Thanks.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 15, 2010 13:39 UTC (Wed) by xxiao (guest, #9631) [Link] (1 responses)

While nothing is perfect I do feel Ubuntu is a blessing to me. I use it at home and work every day. I think they should provide a 'Donate' button on their homepage.

They deserve way more appreciation than criticize. It's free, if you don't like it, use something else.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 16, 2010 6:14 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

You'd donate? Well guess what.. the button you are looking for exists!

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/get-involved/donate

Note that since Ubuntu is not managed as a non-profit entity the donation is not tax-deductible. You would be essentially donating to Canonical as a for-profit company. And if you are okay with that, then I'm not going argue with you about it. At the end of the day a user donation business model might actually be the best model for Canonical. Such a model directly leverages the perceived strength that Canonical likes talking about.. Ubuntu's popularity. Weirder things have happen.

So how much are you donating?

-jef

A FLOSS designer's perspective

Posted Sep 16, 2010 21:37 UTC (Thu) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]

"There were designers working in free software before we made this push. I hope they feel that Canonical’s emphasis on the design-lead approach has made their lives easier, and the community at large more appreciative of their efforts and receptive to their ideas."

It's a nice hope, yet in my experience the answer is no. I've been involved in the FLOSS community (GNOME, Fedora, and numerous smaller projects) in a design capacity since 2004, and I honestly cannot recall a single time I've had to make a sales pitch for design to a FLOSS developer or contributor. In fact, for me one of the big perks working as a designer in FLOSS has been avoiding that particular dog & pony show. Instead, I get to cut to the chase of actual design work with extremely talented and smart technical folks who I never have to defend my existence to and who are very clearly quite grateful for any design help they can get! If you're a designer in FLOSS you basically get your pick of projects and brilliant people to work with and that's a terribly exciting opportunity - one that exists because design is such a coveted skill in our community.

"But still, if you *really* care about design in free software, the Canonical design team is the place to be."

The very reason Mark's defensive blog post was written at all is the reason I believe Canonical's design team is *not* the place to be for a designer interested in making an impactful, positive difference in free & open source software. Would you, as a designer, want to limit the impact of your work on the FLOSS community by having it colored by the negative perceptions, well-deserved and not-deserved alike, that an organization like Canonical has in the greater community?

I enjoy designing. I hate spinning - that kind of stuff makes me miserable. I'd rather work with an organization that has a strong and widely-respected commitment to upstreaming, transparency, inclusiveness, and generally doing things the right way.

BTW if you are interested in any of the designers-for-FLOSS outreach projects I mentioned, I am happy to talk your ear off about them.

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 3:06 UTC (Fri) by forlwn (guest, #63934) [Link] (3 responses)

Ubuntu was a wonderful surprise when I tried it for the first time. I could not imagine that it was possible to exist anywhere in the world, an Operating System that was as good as the dominant existing one. In fact, in many key aspects, Ubuntu was still better for me, and I'm not even thinking about it's freedom, as cost and as usage.

Of course, at that time, it come to my mind that Ubuntu would pose a very serious threat to that O/S.

Today, after reading a few comments placed at Mark Shuttleworth's post, I'm almost in shock realising that at the end, it's inside the Linux / Open Source campus where people are coming to publicly state that Ubuntu does pose a real threat, but... to the FLOSS. And they react to this fact in a more virulent way than what I could expect from a well known micro software company. Strange position's....

The reason, they say, it's because Mark Shuthleworth does not contribute back with code, and is looking to make money with Ubuntu, at the cost of the work of the Open Source community of developers. I thought that the Open Source community did not include only developers, but... OK.

Going back to that micro software company. To face the threat and the big concern they felt about the growing Linux and Canonical's reach, at the beginning of this year they started hiring high profile employees directly from the Open Source communities (with no less than 10 years of experience inside them). Certainly, this happened because they thought that it was more easy to compete and win against Linux and the Open Source from the inside of it, than in the way it should be correct to be done: writing better code.

This issue was largely commented in the net, at the time, with some people predicting that someday we would face those boys around us. That makes each day more difficult to know who is who and what each one is up to.

For those who may be in doubt, just think about this: from whose pockets would Canonical find money enough to generate two or three of the most rich persons in the world, in the years to come?

To end with, I'd like to congratulate Mark for bringing choice and freedom to the PC market. And also, encourage him to keep his altruistic attitude among people, although it's assured that unexpected fights may come in the way, some of them, and may be the most difficult ones, from where no one would expect them to come.

To know more about the shameless job description of the boys hired by the micro software company, please follow this link, or google it and press "cached":

http://www.microsoft-careers.com/job/San-Salvador-Initiat...(717317-External)-Job-SV/864893/

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 3:21 UTC (Fri) by forlwn (guest, #63934) [Link] (2 responses)

"http://www.microsoft-careers.com/job/San-Salvador
-Initiative-Marketing-Manager%28717317-External%29-Job-SV/864893/"

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 6:05 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (1 responses)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WxNi...

"Linux" appears 20 times. Impressive!

Shuttleworth: Reflections on Ubuntu, Canonical and the march to free software adoption

Posted Sep 17, 2010 8:04 UTC (Fri) by forlwn (guest, #63934) [Link]

And FOSS 22 times.

Looks like an obsession.


Copyright © 2010, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds