User: Password:
|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 9, 2010 20:07 UTC (Fri) by Daiz (guest, #65138)
In reply to: Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle by xiphmont
Parent article: Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

>canned stream

What exactly is a canned stream? Sounds an awful lot like progressive download to me. MPC-HC might not do that fine if you try to seek to a part that hasn't downloaded yet, but then again it's purpose is not to be a web player. It'd be quite trivial to have your web player a) download the index separately b) not create an index and have a bit slower seeking. Once again, for playing actually live streams (which we have been mostly talking about) that you can't seek because they're live it'd work perfectly fine.

>You do understand that we do not and will not promote or advocate any encumbered codecs as a policy that is coded into our charter, correct?
>Strictly speaking, we're not allowed to.

Yes, and I'm saying that it's a serious disadvantage for the Ogg container. For example, I couldn't just take my DVD right here and mux all its streams into an Ogg and have it work. With Matroska, I could, and it'd be pretty darn simple to do as well.

>I also don't think it's useful to try to convince Web vendors to support unencumbered media by advertising your support for encumbered codecs.

Maybe if they used system playback capabilities to play back HTML5 video they wouldn't have to. As a result, there'd be no licensing costs to worry about and users could use the formats they normally use.

>Are you seriously suggesting Ogg can't do this? Or perhaps more relvantly, suggesting that having multiple ways to do something is inherently superior to having one way everyone agrees on?

So far I have not seen SRT or ASS muxed into Ogg and have it work. Ogg's own subtitle format Kate is about on par with SRT on a technical level right now and support is miniscule. Meanwhile, tons of hardware players support SRT subtitles, and so does basically every software player ever that has any kind of subtitle support.

AS to when it comes to chapters, I seriously doubt Ogg has anything similar to ordered chapters, segment linking and editions that Matroska has. I've used these features on some of my personal media files and in certain scenarios they are indeed useful. What's the situation with Ogg and chapters anyway? Does Ogg incorporate a standard chapter format and does anything support it?

>We could add a whole bunch of stuff that's only marginally supported in the real world to our spec too. I think the fact that we don't is an asset, not a liability.

It'd be pretty hard to do anything that wouldn't be "marginally supported" considering that Ogg is a marginally supported format to begin with. Any proper software player on every platform supports these features perfectly, the problems lie in the hardware players for these features. Since quite a lot of content is made to be consumed only on a PC, nothing would stop you from using them there successfully.

>Yeah, that totally sunk YouTube. No one I know uses it.

Except that YouTube converts everything you throw at it. My pretty MKV files too! Of course if you have a service like YouTube, it's relatively trivial what format it uses as long as users can upload anything they have to it. But with HTML5 video, the scope will obviously be larger: People will want to upload content on their own sites as well. If they'd use MKV for all their media purposes, they'd have to go the extra mile of converting their files to Theora+Vorbis in Ogg. Alternatively, if they used say H.264 & Vorbis in MKV they could potentially just directly upload it to their site, insert a <video> tag and have it work. And before you go about "H.264 licensing costs" I'd like to remind that using H.264 for freely distributed web video is completely free for the next 5½ years. Alternatively, they could use Theora & Vorbis in MKV too if they wanted, and maybe throw some SRT subtitles on top of that too. Or ASS, if system playback were to be used in the browser.

>In what way is Ogg only deployed on the web?
>I have a nice library of Ogg movies. Naturally, I rip my own DVDs to
Ogg. I'm starting to produce my own vids in Ogg.

Well gee, who would have thought? Xiph people using Ogg Theora! I'd just like to point you to the group of people known as "rest of the world" who use software like Handbrake and similar to rip their DVDs and who would have ever guessed, most of those recommend using H.264 and MKV! And software like Handbrake flat out just don't support Ogg. Fact is outside web normal people don't use Theora. They use H.264 and MKV for their personal stuff. The people who does this kind of stuff seriously also largely favor MKV, as evident by the doom9 container polls. Outside web, Ogg and Theora simply have no benefits over other, better formats.

>Matroska has support in some DVD players, this is true... assuming you use codecs that those players actually have available.

Well, guess what they usually support? High Profile H.264, AC3, MP3, maybe even Vorbis, AAC, SRT... all formats that people normally use as well. I don't think I've yet to run into any hardware player that supports Matroska yet doesn't support High Profile H.264 at Level 4.1. DivX 7 is also helping users in this aspect.

>how is using Matroska different from just using the MP4 container or FLV? They have
far wider deployment than Matroska.

Newsflash: They suck compared to Matroska. MP4's subtitle support is laughable at best (which is the biggest deal-breaker for me) and it doesn't natively support AC3 either. Chapters are also generally a nonstandard feature. FLV is even more restricted, I don't think it has any soft subtitle support at all. I recommend Matroska because it is better. Being free and open source just adds to that.

>Matroska does not offer that.

Yeah, it might not, but then again what would stop from using Theora+Vorbis in MKV? Nothing, and you could throw some widely supported (and equally patent unencumbered) chapters and softsubs on top of that too.

>You are living with your head in the sand.

I would say the same about you if you seriously suggest that people outside Xiph would use Ogg and Theora for their personal media encoding.

>...so you're saying "sure it might be true, but don't do it because I don't like it"?

No, I'm saying that it can be easily misinterpreted and in that way end up as false advertisement. And doing false advertisement certainly doesn't improve the image of Xiph.

>Ogg streaming has one very obvious, very visible benefit for users: It actually exists.

Yeah! Now I can watch 0.1% more video content on the web!

>Yes. For example, RedHat is using it internally for video conferencing meetings between international offices.

Can you point out any examples that I (or anyone else save for RedHat employees) could watch and prove to be working? Just hearing you say "yeah it totally exists" doesn't really cut it.


(Log in to post comments)

I'm streaming Ogg Theora very often

Posted Apr 10, 2010 9:08 UTC (Sat) by Velmont (guest, #46433) [Link]

I'm right now making my living streaming Ogg Theora using HTML5 in Firefox 3.6+.

I'm obviously not streaming 24/7, only when there is a conference, but I'll probably do it on the 15th. Yesterday I streamed the whole day to test how much load Icecast2 used for streaming Ogg Theora to a bunch of clients (it was almost nothing, so I don't need more servers :) )

Norwegian Unix User Group also streams all their member meetings. Linux Audio Conference does streaming in the same way, and a bunch of others. In the coming months the number will only increase.

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 11, 2010 8:33 UTC (Sun) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link]

> And before you go about "H.264 licensing costs" I'd like to remind that using H.264 for freely distributed web video is completely free for the next 5½ years.

And *after* 5½ years money won't exist at all, because the Singularity will have arrived! 5½ years is so far in the future that taking anything about it into account when making decisions now would just be *irrational*!

(Out of curiosity, when is your cut-off for the future being relevant? 5 years? 3 years? 1 year? next week?)

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 12, 2010 12:57 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>For example, I couldn't just take my DVD right here and mux all its streams into an Ogg and have it work. With Matroska, I could, and it'd be pretty darn simple to do as well.

Do you mean to end up with a single mkv file that includes all the menus etc, and is essentially indistinguishable from the DVD? A quick Google search didn't come up with any instructions to do this (admittedly it was *very* quick) - do you have any pointers?

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 13, 2010 13:09 UTC (Tue) by robux4 (guest, #65101) [Link]

> Do you mean to end up with a single mkv file that includes all the menus
> etc, and is essentially indistinguishable from the DVD? A quick Google
> search didn't come up with any instructions to do this (admittedly it was
> *very* quick) - do you have any pointers?

Look for DvdMenuXtractor. It extracts all the meaningful info from a DVD file structure and prepares scripts to merge them back in Matroska with mkvtoolnix. It's not a 100% safe tool and is unmaintained. It was mostly a proof of concept, but VLC is supposed to play the produced files, including the DVD menus.
I don't suggest playing such files on the web though ;)

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 13, 2010 19:51 UTC (Tue) by ironiridis (guest, #60586) [Link]

It's crazy, but I just rip the ISO files instead. :)

Ogg and the multimedia container format struggle

Posted Apr 14, 2010 11:37 UTC (Wed) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

I'll take a look, thanks.

Handbrake default container

Posted Apr 15, 2010 10:14 UTC (Thu) by bawjaws (guest, #56952) [Link]

> I'd just like to point you to the group of people known as "rest of the world" who use software like Handbrake and similar to rip their DVDs and who would have ever guessed, most of those recommend using H.264 and MKV! And software like Handbrake flat out just don't support Ogg.

I use Handbrake. In fact I'm ripping a DVD right now as I type this. Both the Normal and High Profile settings (they ripped out all the old presets and boiled it down to two) create H.264 in an MPEG-4 container. I personally don't know anyone who's ever used it for MKV and I'm unaware of what the benefit would be over the defaults.

Also, Handbrake did support Ogg, Ogm to be precise, though not ever very well. They just removed the Ogg and Theora support recently to focus on H.264. (I don't think this was particularly a comment on Theora, they removed Xvid too as part of the same narrowing of focus).


Copyright © 2017, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds